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Classical music, 2-channel, and sub-woofers?


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What worries me is that you are taking a digital signal, converting it to Analogue in the standard DAC, then converting it back to digital, operating on it via the software, and then converting back to analogue again. I guess I should have got one of them 8-channel DAC thingies.

 

What I did (I have a DEQ2496 and stereo subs) is implement the extra ADC/DAC only in the bass. In other words split the analogue signals at the pre-amp out and run one pair to the DEQ and the other to the Amp. Now you have two eq'd subs. The original DAC is all that's working on the rest of the signal (that which is above the DEQ cross over).

 

The DEQ works very nicely and is convenient as it has precise controls (both PEQ and GEQ--parametric and graphic) the ability to store various settings and one can lower and raise the level of the whole shebang. It also includes an RTA with which you can measure and easily see the response of your sub's various placements in the room. The picture is relatively crude compared with the REW mentioned elsewhere, but that could be ameliorated later if you find yourself wanting to do more diddling.

 

I particularly like being able to have various settings (for me 2 or 3 at the most would be enough) because I find that adding a bit more deep bass (In the area of the last half octave of the double basses and below) to many orchestral classical recordings brings a little heft to the proceedings and gives a more realistic impact to the performances. Using that same bass for anything else is always a bit much.

 

-Chris

 

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Hello There,

 

my Sunfire HRS-10 consumes 30-35 watts in idle! That's way too much for me so I turn it off when not in use - which is a pain since the switch is on the back side. The LED power indicator is also on the back and sometimes I forget to turn the sub off so its idle the whole night (more of a pain).

 

The manual says "600 watts average, at maximum continuous output, 18 to 100 Hz.". I listen to my music at moderate levels so I guess I'm not even using 20 watts of that.

 

I agree with those claiming 2 subs are better than one. It's not about filling a room with enough sound but about having balanced sound. I only have one sub and it is on the right hand side of my listening room (not between the speakers). My Lyngdorf amp has it tuned in very well but I (think I) feel the sound pressure on the right side of my face so I believe having another sub on the other side of the room would even that out.

 

I also listen to a lot of classical music and having a sub certainly enhances the performance.

 

jerryt[br]Intel D525MW based server -> m2tech hiface; Cambridge Audio 640c II -> Lyngdorf TDAI 2200 -> Dynaudio Confidence C1, Sunfire HRS-10; Meier-Audio Corda Arietta -> AKG K 701

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It looks like several types have both conventional line-level input and speaker-level input. I was reading the manual for the B&W PV1, and I was surprised to see that they recommend the speaker-level input for 2-channel audio:

 

For 2-channel operation, use speaker level rather than line level connections. The subwoofer presents a high impedance load to the stereo power amplifier and takes very little current, so may be connected in parallel with the main speakers with no adverse effects.

 

It looks like it connects with tiny little telephone bell wires.

 

So is it really preferable to hook them up this way?

 

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If you're really thinking about dumping something like a couple of thou, audition the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature, and any other "full range" audiophile speaker in the price range you are thinking of that recommendations or your research make you curious about.

 

IMHO timing effects are crucial in conveying the illusion of reality, and the greater the number of boxen, the harder the timing is to get just right. I haven't read Jim's book or watched the DVD. Perhaps his setup recommendations are really good at dealing with the timing issue. So you may find the sub route is the way to go. I'd suggest the best way to find out if you'll be happy with the results when you're talking about real money is to spend as much time listening as it takes to be reasonably sure.

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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It is a lot of money to blow on something that I probably don't need.

 

Who said anything about "need"? We're talkin' "want" here, which is a helluva lot more fun.

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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but, like with most things, if not done properly, they can distract from the enjoyment.

 

I use multiple subs and active speakers in an effort to reproduce the majority of the audible spectrum with as little distortion as possible.

 

I've got ~400 watts per speaker, with the 4 subs each getting their own ~1200 watts (marketing said 2400 watts)

 

I've measured the response with a mic and dialed in some room and equipment corrections in addition to my room treatments.

 

I'm a bass-head and really enjoy a generous low end on my music. prior to measuring, and just tuning to my ear, I was 10db hot below 80 hz. Now I'm +6 at 15Hz (referenced to 1kHz) and gently roll off up to a -3at 20kHz (in-room at Listening position)

I'm trying to enjoy it, but with certain recordings it sounds too harsh up high. It doesn't help that my first love is the metal and rock genre :)

 

The wonderful thing about my setup, is that I can very easily save a different EQ preset for different styles and different recordings.

 

Despite all the wires, boxes and EQ settings, when the lights dim, there is just the recording and performers. I am lucky not to have any significant issues with ground loops or clicks, or dropouts with the current setup. I either have "low resolution" equipment, or I did my homework and got lucky with the setup! Either way, I'm toe tapping most of the time.

 

I'll attach a really high quality MS paint drawing of my connections that allow the beast to work.

Main points are that my equipment is next door to the room, with only the main amps and crossover in the room. All the distracting lights are elsewhere.

 

Getting back to your OP, I'd suggest that if you are really going to put a sub (or two) into your setup, take the time to measure it so that you understand what is happening to the frequency response.

 

If the sub excites a 45Hz mode that the mains do not reach down to, it could sound worse to your ears, but with a bit of EQ of that point, you could have a much better-sounding system.

 

Sorry for the novel...

todd

 

Win7 64bit / iTunes / Xonar ST / Behringer DEQ2496 / Wyred4Sound DAC-2 / Wyred STP-SE preamp / dbx 233XL / 4 Outlaw m200 monoblocks / DIY active GR Research LS9\'s / Quad 15 inch subwoofers

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It looks like several types have both conventional line-level input and speaker-level input. I was reading the manual for the B&W PV1, and I was surprised to see that they recommend the speaker-level input for 2-channel audio...

 

In general, the sound is more coherent, more consistent top to bottom with the speaker/amplifier level input.

 

Some of the best subs I know of, such as the RELs, seem to agree, with REL strongly suggesting this mode of operation where possible.

 

 

Various speakers, electronics, cable, etc. on loan for manufacturers' evaluation.

More or less permanently in use:

 

Schiit Iggy (latest), Ayre QB-9 DSD, Ayre Codex, Uptone Audio ISO Regen/LPS-1 Power supply, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio LanRover, Small Green Computer, Sonore ultraRendu, gigaFOIL4 ethernet/optical filter - Keces PS-3 power supply, (3) MBPs - stripped down for music only,  AQ Diamond USB & Ethernet, Transparent USB, Curious USB, LH Lightspeed split USB, Halide USB DAC, Audirvana +, Pure Music, ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue amp, Ayre K-5xeMP preamp, Pass X-1 preamp, Quicksilver Mid-Mono Amps, Pass XA-30.5 amp, Duelund ICs & Speaker Cables, Paul Hynes SR-7 power supply, Grand Prix Audio Monaco Isolation racks & F1 shelves, Tannoy Canterbury SEs w/custom Duelund crossovers and stands, 2 REL 212SEs, AV RoomService EVPs, ASC Tube Traps, tons of CDs, 30 IPS masters, LPs.

 

http://www.getbettersound.com

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If you're really thinking about dumping something like a couple of thou, audition the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature, and any other "full range" audiophile speaker in the price range you are thinking of that recommendations or your research make you curious about.

 

Except that - no matter how deep the mains are purported to go (or for that matter - how much they cost) - it almost never works out that the place where bass is reproduced at its very best is also the best place for ultimate presence and life, not to mention audiophile favorites such as soundstaging...

 

Various speakers, electronics, cable, etc. on loan for manufacturers' evaluation.

More or less permanently in use:

 

Schiit Iggy (latest), Ayre QB-9 DSD, Ayre Codex, Uptone Audio ISO Regen/LPS-1 Power supply, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio LanRover, Small Green Computer, Sonore ultraRendu, gigaFOIL4 ethernet/optical filter - Keces PS-3 power supply, (3) MBPs - stripped down for music only,  AQ Diamond USB & Ethernet, Transparent USB, Curious USB, LH Lightspeed split USB, Halide USB DAC, Audirvana +, Pure Music, ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue amp, Ayre K-5xeMP preamp, Pass X-1 preamp, Quicksilver Mid-Mono Amps, Pass XA-30.5 amp, Duelund ICs & Speaker Cables, Paul Hynes SR-7 power supply, Grand Prix Audio Monaco Isolation racks & F1 shelves, Tannoy Canterbury SEs w/custom Duelund crossovers and stands, 2 REL 212SEs, AV RoomService EVPs, ASC Tube Traps, tons of CDs, 30 IPS masters, LPs.

 

http://www.getbettersound.com

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Who said anything about "need"? We're talkin' "want" here, which is a helluva lot more fun.

 

AMEN!

 

Preach it!!! ?

 

Various speakers, electronics, cable, etc. on loan for manufacturers' evaluation.

More or less permanently in use:

 

Schiit Iggy (latest), Ayre QB-9 DSD, Ayre Codex, Uptone Audio ISO Regen/LPS-1 Power supply, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio LanRover, Small Green Computer, Sonore ultraRendu, gigaFOIL4 ethernet/optical filter - Keces PS-3 power supply, (3) MBPs - stripped down for music only,  AQ Diamond USB & Ethernet, Transparent USB, Curious USB, LH Lightspeed split USB, Halide USB DAC, Audirvana +, Pure Music, ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue amp, Ayre K-5xeMP preamp, Pass X-1 preamp, Quicksilver Mid-Mono Amps, Pass XA-30.5 amp, Duelund ICs & Speaker Cables, Paul Hynes SR-7 power supply, Grand Prix Audio Monaco Isolation racks & F1 shelves, Tannoy Canterbury SEs w/custom Duelund crossovers and stands, 2 REL 212SEs, AV RoomService EVPs, ASC Tube Traps, tons of CDs, 30 IPS masters, LPs.

 

http://www.getbettersound.com

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IMHO timing effects are crucial in conveying the illusion of reality, and the greater the number of boxen, the harder the timing is to get just right.

 

Excellent point.

 

Of course timing is crucial where the shorter wavelengths can really play havoc, say from 75 Hz & up.

 

Even when filling in the bottom octave from a main speaker that goes relatively deep, it still is a factor, but it's more forgiving at, say 35 Hz. As long as the woofer isn't too far away. If in reasonable proximity, a simple phase reversal is usually enough to make a choice when dealing with 30 foot wavelengths.

 

Where many sub owners often make a mistake is when making adjustments in bass level. They do not realize that adjusting level also shifts the x-over point, even though they didn't touch it. Both need to be addressed. If not, then the hand-off is rarely seamless.

 

Various speakers, electronics, cable, etc. on loan for manufacturers' evaluation.

More or less permanently in use:

 

Schiit Iggy (latest), Ayre QB-9 DSD, Ayre Codex, Uptone Audio ISO Regen/LPS-1 Power supply, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio LanRover, Small Green Computer, Sonore ultraRendu, gigaFOIL4 ethernet/optical filter - Keces PS-3 power supply, (3) MBPs - stripped down for music only,  AQ Diamond USB & Ethernet, Transparent USB, Curious USB, LH Lightspeed split USB, Halide USB DAC, Audirvana +, Pure Music, ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue amp, Ayre K-5xeMP preamp, Pass X-1 preamp, Quicksilver Mid-Mono Amps, Pass XA-30.5 amp, Duelund ICs & Speaker Cables, Paul Hynes SR-7 power supply, Grand Prix Audio Monaco Isolation racks & F1 shelves, Tannoy Canterbury SEs w/custom Duelund crossovers and stands, 2 REL 212SEs, AV RoomService EVPs, ASC Tube Traps, tons of CDs, 30 IPS masters, LPs.

 

http://www.getbettersound.com

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... to Jim and everyone else. I really appreciate all the input. For the record, I still need to go through all the basic and free stuff thoroughly that Jim recommends in his book and DVDs (I'm about 1/3 of the way there I reckon) before I can seriously think about this. But it made me very curious because I had simply never thought about it before at all.

 

Somewhat tangentially, I was wondering what people think of AudioTools as a somewhat inexpensive way to help voice a room? I bought this for my iPad and my first impressions have been quite positive.

 

 

 

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I think the biggest mistake people make with sub-woofers is (a) setting the roll-off too high and (b) setting the volume too low. The former produces a boomy effect, and the latter inadequately compensates for it. The REL manuals do a good job of walking you through the tuning process (though their focus is really on having just one sub-woofer, planted in a corner).

 

I also note that, in idle mode, my REL only pulls four watts. My Mac Mini, for contrast, pulls thirteen.

 

 

 

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I was wondering what people think of AudioTools as a somewhat inexpensive way to help voice a room?

 

IMO, I'd never use this until I had addressed everything I could without it. And more than likely, not even then.

 

Otherwise, for some folks it can be seen as a panacea, even a short-cut. And it isn't.

 

For example, if you have a suck-out in your room at 80Hz, no amount of boosting with eq is likely to ever help. In fact, it's almost certainly going to cause more harm than good.

 

The only room eq that I've seen that works well is the DEQX. But only after you have done everything else externally, and preferably with the DEQX loudspeaker corrections done first. And it ain't cheap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Various speakers, electronics, cable, etc. on loan for manufacturers' evaluation.

More or less permanently in use:

 

Schiit Iggy (latest), Ayre QB-9 DSD, Ayre Codex, Uptone Audio ISO Regen/LPS-1 Power supply, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio LanRover, Small Green Computer, Sonore ultraRendu, gigaFOIL4 ethernet/optical filter - Keces PS-3 power supply, (3) MBPs - stripped down for music only,  AQ Diamond USB & Ethernet, Transparent USB, Curious USB, LH Lightspeed split USB, Halide USB DAC, Audirvana +, Pure Music, ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue amp, Ayre K-5xeMP preamp, Pass X-1 preamp, Quicksilver Mid-Mono Amps, Pass XA-30.5 amp, Duelund ICs & Speaker Cables, Paul Hynes SR-7 power supply, Grand Prix Audio Monaco Isolation racks & F1 shelves, Tannoy Canterbury SEs w/custom Duelund crossovers and stands, 2 REL 212SEs, AV RoomService EVPs, ASC Tube Traps, tons of CDs, 30 IPS masters, LPs.

 

http://www.getbettersound.com

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diss an analysis and testing tool (that he obviously knows nothing about!!!). The ipad/iphone app called Audiotools, although expensive in some of its in-app features, is a great little analysis tool for finding and documenting room mode/node/null/phase/time delay decay rt60, etc issues. No one even intimated that it would be used (which it can't) as a cheap EQ, or some detrimental level you are presupposing. ??

 

http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools.html

 

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I think he might have just been confusing it with DSP/equalization software. DVD #3 ends with him showing some of the more specialized (hardware) tools, so I don't think this is against his thinking.

 

I found a defect in one of my amp boards using the oscilloscope and FFT features. I heard the distortion first, but it was nice to be able to objectively verify the problem (and then get the amp board replaced under warranty), so it already paid for itself as far as that is concerned.

 

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You are so right!

 

I was reading what I thought would be asked rather than actually paying sufficient attention to what was asked.

 

Plus, I use a self-contained unit and have never used the Audiotools program.

 

Had a complicated project going on and should have waited to reply.

 

Shows I cannot double task at all!

 

My apologies.

 

In this case, the system is made or broken on the quality of the mic.

 

Of course, the eq statement stands, whenever anyone wants to ask it. ?

 

 

 

Various speakers, electronics, cable, etc. on loan for manufacturers' evaluation.

More or less permanently in use:

 

Schiit Iggy (latest), Ayre QB-9 DSD, Ayre Codex, Uptone Audio ISO Regen/LPS-1 Power supply, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio LanRover, Small Green Computer, Sonore ultraRendu, gigaFOIL4 ethernet/optical filter - Keces PS-3 power supply, (3) MBPs - stripped down for music only,  AQ Diamond USB & Ethernet, Transparent USB, Curious USB, LH Lightspeed split USB, Halide USB DAC, Audirvana +, Pure Music, ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue amp, Ayre K-5xeMP preamp, Pass X-1 preamp, Quicksilver Mid-Mono Amps, Pass XA-30.5 amp, Duelund ICs & Speaker Cables, Paul Hynes SR-7 power supply, Grand Prix Audio Monaco Isolation racks & F1 shelves, Tannoy Canterbury SEs w/custom Duelund crossovers and stands, 2 REL 212SEs, AV RoomService EVPs, ASC Tube Traps, tons of CDs, 30 IPS masters, LPs.

 

http://www.getbettersound.com

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perspective (due to his books, DVD's, reviews and services) it might make sense to know something about a product before diss'ing it. I'm sure the folks at Audiotools are not excited (in the positive sense).

 

Edit: Jim apologized and admitted he mistaked the product. Thanks Jim.

 

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Ted, I really admire your knowledge and commitment, but if I may offer one little suggestion, one I could do well to take myself, is to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt. It is very easy to be misunderstood or simply make a mistake, especially when communicating on an internet forum with just a pile of Ascii text instead of all the non-verbal cues we use to communicate in person. (I sometimes call this ascii-text autism).

 

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Shows I cannot double task at all!

 

Some of the truest words I've ever heard: "'Multi-tasking' is just a fancy term for not paying attention." :-)

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Ouch. I have been posting for years, and maybe I'm getting too testy. The issue I had (not have, he apologized, and i'm fine) was that folks like Jim, who have a great reputation and have lots of folks hanging on their words and recommendations, can put a business out of business with their words...you and I can't.

 

So, I will redouble my efforts...and do my best to not "double task" :)

 

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According to the "DEQX Technology Whitepaper", their device does two things:

 

1. Optional: EQ of the loudspeakers above 300 Hz based on near-field measurements intended to exclude room effects. This requires removing the passive crossover built into most loudspeakers and using the DEQX hardware as an active crossover.

 

2. EQ of the room below 200 Hz. "The room response is displayed and is either corrected automatically or manually, using multiple minimum-phase parametric equalization bands."

 

Step 2 is identical to what you can do yourself with a room response measurement program such as Room EQ Wizard (donation-ware) in combination with a minimum-phase parametric EQ plugin such as those I mentioned above.

 

Pure Music and Fidelia music players have built-in capability for hosting AU plugins for EQ.

 

HQPlayer (on 3.8 GHz 8-core i7 iMac 2020) > NAA (on 2012 Mac Mini i7) > RME ADI-2 v2 > Benchmark AHB-2 > Thiel 3.7

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