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Mr Wicked, June 7, 2011
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Posted June 7, 2011
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First of all my apologies for my post from half a year ago. At that time of writing I thought I had it all figured out, but I was far far away from reality. Now, a half year later I can tell you that PS3 SACD ripping is finally possible and works with a natively build PS3 application (NO linux required).
It really has been a rollercoaster ride and without the release of PS3 keys this would not have been possible. It all came together at the right time, but it required alot of reverse engineering, learning the internals of the PS3 and last but not least writing code to see code!!: (http://code.google.com/p/ida-spu) Yes, too much time of my life has gone into this, but I don't regret any of it..
Although still in alpha successful dumps are being made as we speak. But due to legal reasons I will not spread binaries and I'll leave that up to others. The user interface is simple but it will allow you to dump DSDIFF, DSF, ISO in both multi and stereo channels and it also creates the necessary ID3 tags so your track/disc information is not lost. Remember the software is still in ALPHA, but it's way more than just a proof of concept... let the testing begin!
I need to find me an old, non updated PS3.
First I am a newbie...probably not going to do anything like this...But I am curious what the resultant .iso file you're getting actually consists of...you say it has both the multi and stereo info on it? So in that case then the resultant disk image would be mountable? Perhaps burnable? I am just wondering if there are a bunch of dsd files on the mounted iso or exactly what you are dealing with. Sorry if this is a dumb question I am just wondering the practical applications of this. Like if I could keep a disk image instead of a disk...that kinda thing...could I restore a disk from said image...This isn't entirely from a pirate perspective...lots of disks get scratches through the years...it would be nice to have back ups of back ups.....
I have my 3.50 firmware'd PS3 (cechb01) on its way. The dumps so far are very cool and work as advertised (DIFF and ISO).
I guess I have a bunch of questions but it's probably just inexperience. I don't know what the PS3 keys are, or how to get them (the URL in the instructions has no download button); I don't know what a USB disc is (thumb drive?); nor can I find the actual app anywhere.
It wasn't part of my plan to make that in the first place, but I was asked to. Mountable? no.. that's unlikely as scarletbook is not a supported filesystem. Burnable, yes.. and I've also made a windows tool that you can use to extract tracks from ISO images as well.
And.. last but not least.. it also turns out there are quite some SACD players which play dumped ISO images too.
SACD, and is burnable on a DVD-R. My Oppo BDP-83SE sees the burned ISO as an SACD. The list of players capable of playing an SACD-R is out there.
Is it possible to purchase a new PS3 and downgrade the firmware to 3.55?
It may be available at a later dat but right now no capability to go back from 3.6...plus you need an SACD-capable PS3..not a new one.
"I suppose this means...I need to find me an old, non updated PS3".
Good luck. My son had a SACD capable PS3 that stopped working (probably a laser reading problem) a month ago. He sent it in for repairs and they sent him a refurbished SACD capable PS3. It worked for 1 day and now this second PS3 is unusable.
I think I will stick with DSD digital downloads or the method provided by ted_b to rip SACDs directly to my DAC even though that method involves DSD to PCM conversions. I usually just digitally record the SACD PCM output to 24/176.4 using my Korg MR-2000S.
I guess if I had an excellent and super expensive SACD player instead just the Oppo player I might just record the SACDs to DSD from the analog outputs of the SACD player. I believe Bruce Brown converts DSD to analog for any editing he has to do before converting back to DSD to avoid any DSD to PCM conversions.
This is what Mike Lavigne had to say about Bruce:
"i don't know Bruce's gear like he does; but i have been in his studio and watched him convert DSD to analog, run it thru his analog processor (i think it's called a Neve), and convert it back to DSD. with the analog Neve processor Bruce can manipulate the signal in the analog domain, add depth, reverb, etc. etc. this is infinitly less harmful to the integrity of the precious DSD signal than a PCM processor. once that signal is converted to PCM there is a bit of life that is lost....at least to my ears.
btw; i do see the value of upconverting DSD to very high rez PCM so it can be downloaded from a server. however; this will not sound as good as the original SACD. the difference may not be great, but there will be a difference."
More native DSD capable DACs are coming very soon. In fact I heard about another one this morning from the manufacturer! That's why I am more interested in this every day.
Posted June 8, 2011
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provide pure DSD playback capability from both a computer and a SACD player/transport like one of the Oppo universal players?
While interest in DSD and computer audio is growing, I have to believe that the larger market is those folks with SACD players and discs, most of whom are very interested in quality music. The present market seems limited to players capable of pure DSD output and A/V receivers with HDMI input and capable of DSD to analog decoding.
For the millionth time - why no DSD DACs with HDMI inputs?
what is likelihood, for pure DSD playback, that users will have the choice to connect either their SACD capable transport (say an Oppo BDP-93) or computer (Windows or Mac) to a DSD DAC?
What are the manufacturers interested in DSD saying?
Most high end manufacturers consider hdmi a mid-fi disaster at best.
None of the DACs I know of will accept a digital stream from an SACD player. I'm guessing this has to do with lack of transports to output pure DSD from an SACD.
Hi Chris - Great site! I have been casually visiting this site for a couple years now but do not remember you discussing DSD much before this thread. It is somewhat surprising to me given that I believe DSD sounds so much better than PCM that it is not even a contest. I know that there are some people, including mastering engineers who swear by PCM and that the "debate" rages on for some people, but to me (and everyone I know, including non-audiophiles who have heard my system) DSD is WAAAAYYYY better, more analog and natural sounding.
In any case, I am really looking forward to you reviewing the newer DSD dacs that are coming out. The Mytek Stereo 192 DAC comes to mind, which is supposed to accept DSD over USB.
...I am really hoping DSD downloads catch on!
How would there be future DSD DACs if you can't the stream out in digital form?
I believe that you will soon be able to stream DSD digitally over USB. There is a DAC coming out from Mytek that touts this capability although I do not know the details.
Currently, you can download pure DSD files and rip them to DVD-R (to make a "DSD" disc) and then play the DSD disc on only one or two SACD players on the market (the Sony SCD-XA5400ES is one).
I am hoping that instead of having to rip DSD discs, more manufacturers will make DACs that allow DSD streaming (over USB) and that this will help high-resolution DSD downloads become more popular. Bluecoast Records is the only place I know of that offers DSD downloads (and a couple of independent artists have released their albums via DSD download).
is the Korg MR-2000S. I can download DSD music from sites such as Bluecoast Records on my computer and transfer via USB the DSD files to the 80GB hard drive in the Korg. From there it is pure DSD playback from the Korg with no noisy fans or computer. Even better is the fact that I can also make my own DSD files from digitizing vinyl and SACDs or recording live music.
Of course the downside is that the Korg cannot playback DSD files from an external hard drive or a noisy (by comparison to the Korg) computer. And in all honesty though I am extremely happy with the Korg MR-2000S I still long for a DSD solution for computer audio that will provide instant access to 1-4 TBs of DSD files rather than a mere 80 GBs which is only about 14 hours of DSD128 or 28 hours of DSD64.
Hate to raise the obvious but please clarify stereo vs multichannel when you post.
Given that a large volume of stereo SACD recordings are now finding there way onto sites like HDtracks, can someone please explain what is the big deal about DSD anyway?
A lot of users are probably like me and only buy SACD's for multichannel, and are looking for an SACD "backup" solution for this reason
1. The music - I have to love, like or be impressed with the music
2. High resolution purity - I am not interested in any upsampled RBCDs to SACDs. Those are a rip off by deceitful profiteers
3. DSD or analog recording - I prefer the original recording to be either DSD recordings or from analog master tapes
4. Multichannel audio - though my reference music system is stereo, I do have a lesser but still musical home theater system that I sometimes use to play multichannel DVD-As and SACDs. I also believe that multichannel SACDs are likely not to be upsampled ripoffs of RBCDs or stereo PCM files
Of course with the data capacities of SACD discs I believe that it should never be a choice of stereo vs multichannel vs redbook. IMO a SACD should provide all three and fortunately many hybrid SACDs do.
The new Playback Designs MPD-3 DAC can play DSD64/128fs files via USB from a Mac mini. The MPS-5 can do it now via ST-optical and eventually USB over the available bridge.
Although disk-space is inexpensive these days. I think we still need a good and fast (opensource!) solution for DST compression / decompression. Raw DSD is really large to store and the algorithm to decode from DST to DSD tends to be very slow on personal computers.
At this time of writing the PS3 is the fastest machine to do DST decoding in software, but I'm using 5 CPUs to get it that fast..! And when I'm talking "fast" I'm talking 0.9MB/sec decoding speed & 2.4MB/sec writing speed, which is nothing really...
why would any user want DTS? It would seem that DTS is a non-starter and requires unnecessary compression and decompression. The only conversion I want is pure DSD to analog
According to a website the first two generations of Sony's PS3 game console were capable of reading SACD discs. These early PS3s were capable of converting surround DSD to lossy 1.5 Mbit/s DTS for playback over S/PDIF using the Playstation system software. Starting with the third generation (introduced October 2007), SACD playback was removed altogether.
I have no problems whatsoever in downloading DSD files from Bluecoast Records or 2L. Using the Korg MR-2000S I do not need any 5 CPUs for any DST compression and decompression processes. My only complaint I have with the Korg is the same I would have with any computer today that has a hard drive less than 500GB and does not allow full operations with large external hard drives (it’s hard to believe that in 1983 the IBM PC XTs with only a 10MB HD sold for $8K). Of course in all fairness the Korg recorders were developed for recording and not for computer audio playback. So the 80GB internal hard drive is sized appropriately for 14-28 hours of DSD recording and the DSD files can be transferred as needed to a computer using the USB connection in order to make space for another 14-28 hours of DSD recordings.
For those users who do not have a Korg or a DAC capable of pure DSD playback, the music players such as HQPlayer or AudioGate do an excellent job of playing DSD files using realtime conversions to PCM. Though I don’t use Foobar, I believe it has a DSD plug-in to enable DSD playback. Perhaps someone can comment on how well it works. I did try Pure Music with DSD last weekend but I found that process to be way too slow.
compressed proprietary DST (direct stream transfer) format that is decrypted on SACD to become DSD. DTS is a lossy surround codec, and irrelevant to this discussion.
We are talking about taking an SACD disc and ripping it to one of two scenarios:
a) ISO image, which can be burned onto a blank DVD-R and used as a backup to the original SACD (for those players that play SACD-R without flagging...see list I attached above). This single ISO image can also be looked at from a Windows OS and ripped to single stereo and multichannel DFF files (if available, of course) for later conversion and playback. This scenario requires Mr Wicked's secondary Windows-based (maybe OSX later) program that is currently pre-alpha and quite buggy to-date. But it's on the horizon and will be a boon to us who want to collect ISO's as backup and later rip for hi-end DACs to process.
b) rip to individual DFF files. Currently there are a couple of players (like Foobar and PM) that read DFF files and convert to PCM on-the-fly. The more likely and majority use will be to take these DIFF files and convert (one-time, offline) to some level of 24 bit PCM, using tools like Korg's Audiogate, Weiss Saracon, etc.
Personally, I use Saracon to convert to 24/352.8k (aka DXD). I am going to do some heavy a/b'ing to determine if 24/352.8k (and the huge file sizes associated) really gets me any better sonics than, say, 24/176.4k. I mean, I have a 352k-capable DAC, so why not, but the sizes may be silly if the sonics don't merit.
but I am trying to wrap the 3 brains cells I have left around the concept of a sacd iso. You state there is a tool out there for burning the resultant .iso to a DVD? Where is this tool? I did a quick search around the internet for information purposes. I am not an owner of said PS3 so I am not going to be doing any ripping, and I am not trying to advocate anything illegal...let me get that out of the way first. That said there are a number of what claim to be sacd rips out there on the tubes. Only a couple claim to be in an .iso format, which I guess would have been useless just a few months ago if I am following this correctly. So first question is how does one know if the iso they find is the actual sacd layer not the cd layer in terms of file size and such. Would the iso of the sacd layer be like 6GB or something? Next, if I found such an iso and burned it, I seem to be hearing my oppo is going to think it's an SACD...that is exciting!! I'm not sure I have much to be legally excited about, but with SHM-SACD's going for more than 50 bucks a pop at the moment...bad thoughts!!! Anyway I would love to just try this out sometime just for my own amusement to see it work but I gather I'd be breaking about 5 gazillion laws. Just in case I find something along these lines to try out I was hoping maybe someone could fill me in...
You state there is a tool out there for burning the resultant .iso to a DVD?
imgburn, nero, etc..
So first question is how does one know if the iso they find is the actual sacd layer not the cd layer in terms of file size and such.
Most likely to be +-2GB and even up to 9GB is possible.
SACD collection (which means you need a hacked PS3 or someone who has one). I know of only one ISO out there that is a legitimate SACD ISO and it is an early test of this new Mr Wicked app (SRV album). All others are likely just redbook or 24 bit de-embedder rips, and yes, illegal to grab unless you already own the music.
Anyway, assuming you rip your SACD to an ISO, you would either keep it in a safe hard drive for later burning (via ImageBurn, etc) once your original SACD wears out, gets scratched or gets eaten by the dog....or you would load it into another Mr Wicked app (Windows based) to derive individual song tracks from it (DFF files to be converted to some 24 bit format of your choice). This would let you listen to SACD at the highest possible sample rate for your DAC, and would be useful later on when more DFF-reading DACs are produced.
Edit: The ISO is only one product of Mr Wicked's PS3 SACD ripper. You can directly go to individual files too; no need to do the rip-to-ISO step unless you want an ISO for backup, etc.
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