How I learned to stop worrying and love the disc...

[bleedink]

Hi all. I have enjoyed learning about computer related audio through this forum and have tried to employ many of the things I've learned here into my own audio system. I really enjoy high resolution multichannel audio. In the past I accomplished the listening by ripping the music from disc and playing it on my mac mini. I recently bought an OPPO BDP-93 universal disc player and started playing my discs natively instead of ripping them (in cases where they could be ripped). What surprised me was the astounding difference in SQ of the discs over my rips and the reason is that both recordings are being processed by the same DACs in my Yamaha HT amp, but the discs sound clear and present while the rips of the same music sounds a bit muddied. I assume this is caused by "jitter", that elusive barely audible beast. I know I will really offend some audiophiles here but I am using an hdmi cable to feed the receiver from both the Oppo transport and the Mac Mini. Same music, completely different sound. I would like to understand exactly why I am getting different results feeding the same 1's and 0's to the same receiver using the same cable. Could someone on here with a bit of knowledge perhaps help me to understand why this is occurring? I previously hated putting discs in the machine and all that (reminds me of CDs and the 100's I had laying around at one time) but now I cannot imagine listening to rips of the same discs rather than listening to the discs themselves, which is a complete 180 for me. With CDs it is a lot easier to give up the discs which are not the greatest quality anyway. But with higher resolutions I can really tell the difference and I am not liking it!!! So am I forever stuck with discs? I have yet to hear of a multichannel DAC that would work with all the HDMI stuff I have that I could reasonably afford...besides my Yamaha has separate burr browns for each channel so it gives very good sound. It is particularly adept with DTS-MA recording--WOW! Which brings me to another question: DTS-MA sounds AWESOME...it also requires an HDMI cable which is an audiophile no-no from what I have read. So why does it sound so great? And how does it sound so great if HDMI is such crap? That was not meant to denigrate anyone's opinions about the merits or demerits of their opinions on hdmi and stuff. I am seriously wondering about this stuff!! Anyone?

 

[audioengr]

"but the discs sound clear and present while the rips of the same music sounds a bit muddied. I assume this is caused by "jitter", that elusive barely audible beast."

 

It might be a contributor, but there are probably other issues with the way you are doing things including:

 

1) How did you rip these tracks and into what format?

 

2) What steps did you take to bypass the nasties in iTunes or Windows audio stack?

 

3) What playback software are you using?

 

4) What kind of ripping drive are you using?

 

If you are using WMP to rip and playback compressed WMP tracks, then your result is understandable. Also if you are using iTunes on a PC and ripping with iTunes, understandable.

 

These computer software/hardware vendors mean well, but the fact is that audio quality is at the bottom of their lists of critical features.

 

If you are using the CDROM in your laptop etc., this probably does not have C2 error correction. It is critical to have a drive that does and one that the ripping software can work with accurately, including offsets.

 

If you are trying to do it right, then it behooves you to do some more reading, and maybe even connect with a manufacturer that can guide you through these pitfalls.

 

Believe me, I dont use a CD player anymore, not because of the convenience of computer audio, but because it sounds so much better than even the best CD players.

 

Here are a few tips that might help you:

 

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

[bleedink]

I have many sources for files but almost all of my files are flac or some lossless variant and have checksums and such for albums and depending on the software I use (Max usually) it usually includes some kind of error correcting schemata to my understanding and all my discs that I have ripped (I typically rip into aiff or wav myself) deliver supposedly good reports. That being said I typically do use a MBP or Mini to do ripping. I should also add that SOME of the very audio I am listening to was copied using the same equipment and the discs again sound much better than their computer counterparts. This only applies to DVD-A's only. I am generally satisfied with the results I have gotten from CD's. I used the steps on this site to rip my DVD-A collection. I usually would encode in flac as wav's would sometimes do strange things with DTS based files that were not in strict 5.1 format. I did this portion on a PC as the mac version is buggy (DVD extractor). I cannot compare the sound of Blu Disc ripped music streamed as 1. Macs don't support blu-discs and 2. The mini does not support DTS-MA or DTS-HD MST. These are quickly becoming formats of choice though there are not many discs available. So for this the disc obviously trumps the mini here. I use a variety of players on the mini: iTunes and Amarra for 2 channel stuff sometimes. Its not my favorite way to listen to music. I sometimes will use Audionirvana or Ayrewave to listen to music on the mac. I also use XBMC if I am lazy and just want to use the remote. These are hooked up to my receiver by hdmi. I have a Yamaha RX-V2065 which was their flagship about a year ago. It has DACs for each channel and I have good speakers. Again the stuff I hear from DVD-A's is much superior to the rips I have. I tried a few in wav and flac and could hear no discernible difference. I mostly avoid iTunes so I am not sure iTunes is the factor. I hate it. The only reason it's on my computer is for my iPhone. That's it. Otherwise I'd uninstall it with a huge smile on my face. Amarra sounds great but it is sometimes such a pain to deal with iTunes that I gave up using it to be honest. That and the price tag just don't justify putting up with more iTunes. I'd welcome anything you have to say about my set up. I do understand that typically most people here go the mac/dac route but I personally find nothing inherently wrong with HDMI...hence my question here. I mean these discs sound great over hdmi. It just seems to me like I am getting a more accurate sound from the discs. That may seem like an obvious statement but I have heard some great flac too. The new Paul McCartney comes to mind. I don't recall higher resolution 2 channel stuff suffering the same effect. Or perhaps the higher rez maybe masks the problems with my system????

 

[audioengr]

Well, it's not surprising that the clock inside the Mac Mini is not as good as your Transport.

 

There are 2 things you can do about this jitter:

 

1) reclock the Mini before feeding your DAC

 

2) Use USB to drive a converter and then your DAC. This way the master clock in the Mini will be replaced with a low-jitter clock.

 

A good S/PDIF coax cable 1.5m in length should outperform even the best HDMI cable.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

[audiozorro]

anymore than toslink is crap. But there are superior digital interfaces for digital audio and neither HDMI or toslink are the best digital interfaces for audio.

 

There are some folks who are being led to believe that a superior digital interface or DAC chip will guarantee superior sonics. Let me build your next DAC with the best components known to man and I will guarantee that what I give you will be mediocre DAC. As I build more DACs I am confident that the sonic qualities will improve. I am also very confident that I will never build the world’s greatest DAC in my lifetime unless I can get the world’s best DAC builders to design and build it for me.

 

Similarly an excellent CD player is still excellent and may well sound superior to a given computer audio solution. You should love the disc despite the fact that the audio data on the CD is significantly lower in quality than the studio master file or that the CD pits, reading and transport have variabilities that puts the CD player at a distinct disadvantage for the very best sound.

 

I love my physical discs, not because they sound better, because in my system they do not. I love them because they provide a degree of permanency and physical backup. However I sometimes worry, that unlike the 100 year old book that I can pick up and read, or the 50 year old LP and 20 year old CD that still play great, that my digital files will not survive 10 years and will not be handed down to my surviving kin.

 

Of course I also worry about some of my physical discs like SACDs and DVD-As that they won’t be a suitable player 10 years from now. Thank God for Oppo.

 

And after reading hundreds of negative customer reviews on Blu ray discs and non-Oppo players I have doubts whether Blu ray is ready for prime time. Read some of the 1 and 2 star reviews on Amazon and let me know what you think.

 

 

 

[bleedink]

Hmmm. Well those are definitely some things to consider. Since the Oppo has a rather primitive network option for streaming files I am going to try an experiment when I have time today and see how the same music sounds streamed from the oppo as opposed to streamed from the mini just to confirm what you guys are saying in terms of using hdmi and that being the source of the less than optimal sound coming from my computer. I did what you recommended though and went through to some of the reviews...very surprising. Just from what I have personally heard of DTS-MA and HD variants though they thoroughly trump even DVD-A's for sound...maybe one day the labels will let us in on this stuff...

 

[bleedink]

And I guess you guys are correct about the mini's implementation of the hdmi standard...it seems it gives a very 'jittery' (i hope this is the term) response. When the same file is streamed to the Oppo (which doesn't process the music as far a I know) it reveals a much more transparent sounding listening experience. I didn't get the muddiness of clarity I did when using the mini. However since the GUI for the oppo's networking feature (not their fault, I believe that DLNA is slow and buggy anyway) is experimental at best, for now it looks like the mini still will be my go to device for 2 channel music. I am less ambivalent about purchasing a DAC external to my Yamaha (although its DACs are very good) now having done this experiment. It is clear that moving music through the mini over hdmi is what is causing my symptoms. Funny that the HDMI doesn't seem to effect the quality on the OPPO. I could not distinguish it from the CD myself. So as I said my lower rez stuff obviously isn't getting the treatment it needs to compete. I was really hoping to avoid another monetary investment in my Home Entertainment System...but it appears that is not likely given the ear opening I received on using the OPPO as my transport. Appreciate you guys (or girls) taking the time to help me understand what was happening here. I assumed since I was using hdmi on both sources I'd get the same results. Obviously not. It is also worth noting that some of the higher resolution tracks on DVD-A don't appear to be able to be extracted using DVD extractor; I have heard claims that the MLP stream is inaccessible to that software because of DRM so that your rips will only be of a certain quality. I can't verify that myself because my mini isn't transparent enough for me to be able to tell. That could also be the cause for some of the quality loss I am hearing? Again appreciate the advice and time. I am pretty new to all this and the more I learn the more I seem to need to learn. Again I was hoping to avoid dropping more money into the system to play music that isn't master quality anyway. I'd personally rather invest the money in higher resolution source material than buying equipment to make up for the shortcomings of the current audio standard you know? Oh well. Maybe they'll make a 99 dollar super dac that will solve my problems! I just hate to keep feeding my B & W's that muddy garbage I hear from CD quality material!!!!!!!!! Ok end of rant. Would you say that usb to spdif thingy people use on here would help with the clocking issues while still allowing me to use my yamaha? I just am not looking to spend a fortune on 2 channel 16/44.

 

[bleedink]

oops was thinking of that dac in a cable thing that others talk about on here for eliminating some of the shortcomings of the mac without needing to go out an purchase another DAC to feed the DAC I already have in my Yamaha (and which while perhaps not 'audiophile' quality sufficiently emptied my wallet and has served my ears extremely well). All to make up for the shortcomings of the DAC that's in the Mac. (DAC in the Mac was one of the lost Dr. Suess books for those not in the know) Would that 'dac in a cable' thingamajig allow the yammy to control the clock in that case? Im not sure how such things work. Also would the OPPO use that PLL (I dont pretend to know what that is but I believe it helps eliminate jitter in HDMI) stuff that allows for less jitter? A lot of questions but it would help before I dump a bunch of money into something that is satisfactory for my highest rez music. thanks again.

 

[sandyk]

bleedink

FWIW, with my WD TV Live I only have optical out (Toslink) and not coaxial SPDIF.

I get better sound using HDMI to my Samsung "LED" TV and then Toslink out from the TV to my DAC, than I do from Toslink direct out of the WD TV Live to the DAC.I have 2 optical inputs on my DAC ,and I am able to switch between them using a remote control. A couple of friends have verified this too. It's all about how well it is implemented in a product.

Alex

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Well, $100 might be a bit tough, but I think you can probably get pretty close with an HRT Streamer II. Opt for the "plus" version, and you'll be looking at $350, and I think you'll be quite happy.

 

On the other hand, you might want to just try an M2Tech HiFace (USB-S/PDIF converter) to see if you like the whole async USB thing. I bet you can probably pick one of those up for about $150.

 

Either should sort you out a bit better than sending your 2-channel over HDMI into an AVR.

 

Best of luck to you!

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Re-reading your post, I feel compelled to follow up. Yes, there are good reasons to believe that one can get very acceptable performance from a computer-based system. There are also good reasons to believe that one can get very acceptable performance from a CD-based system. There is no reason to believe that one will always be better than another. In fact, aside from this forum, the jury really still seems to be out on this issue.

 

For example, take the Ayre C5xeMP. By all reviews, this is an extraordinary player. Sound quality is crazy-good, but is it the best there is? No. It's not. But it is very, very good.

 

Take the Alpha from Berkeley Audio Devices. By all reviews, this is an extraordinary DAC. Sound quality is crazy-good, but is it the best there is? No. It's not. But it is very, very good.

 

Put them head-to-head in a dozen different "audiophile systems". I'll be willing to bet that most folks would find the Ayre consistently better. Why? Simple. To get the Alpha to the level of the Ayre requires a lot of work, and most folks (even audiophiles) can't or won't be bothered to do it. With the Ayre (and by extension, all disc players), the use is pretty much fool-proof. With the Alpha, the use is pretty much anything but (especially when used with a computer as a source). Of course, the Ayre is about $1000 more, so perhaps that's the real issue there (wink, wink), but just for the record, my Alpha-based setup (with the Legato from AR-T) clearly bettered the Ayre in my own rig, so perhaps that's not it.

 

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that computer audio isn't as straightforward as disc-based audio. And that Oppo of yours is a very nice player. So, perhaps it's not all that surprising that it sounds good, now is it? The audiophile challenge will be to see if you can string together something else that sounds better. Might be tough. Might be expensive. Might be time-consuming. But it certainly can be done. The question is -- is it worth it?

 

[bleedink]

Hey thanks for the reply. Yeah I am currently working out what I would like to do for my next step since it's clear that the mini isn't performing as well as I would like, having now heard a more musical transport. I really didn't realize what exactly I was missing. Appreciate the insight though. This is all still pretty new to me-audio in general, computer based audio in particular. Of course I have always listened to music, but never had enough cash to make it sound very good. As my interest progressed with my income I was recently able to build a fairly good system by my standards. But now I know where it's weaknesses lie and I can go about getting something in the chain to get rid of the jitter. I certainly realize a DAC isn't the whole story here and that a great one isn't going to automatically sound great. But I think the whole jitter thing has some relevancy here and gives me a good place to build on. Again I thank you guys for steering me toward a solution. It's sometimes hard to wrap your head around the fact that the 0's and 1's can sound different on different equipment...and through different wires. It's not completely intuitive that's for sure. I really give kudos to this site though it has not helped my bank account much. I think since I am basically satisfied with the multi channel stuff thru the oppo, the solution here would be to get a better cable to carry the signal and something like the HT streamer to act as a DAC. Again thanks. Since the majority of my music is still 2 channel I guess a few hundred extra to extract some better quality from the signal would be worth it. It would be a shame to waste these B&W's potential.