Jump to content
IGNORED

Any thoughts on Diverter 192 vs. Off-ramp 4?


Recommended Posts

Life was good when I thought the computer-DAC interface problem could be nicely solved for less than a grand. When I read about the upcoming 192 Diverter for $1,800 I thought, ouch! But of course I couldn’t help but be a little bit intrigued. So I started looking around more at other interfaces and came across the upcoming Off-ramp 4. I thought 800 bucks, that’s under a grand, but no. When you look at it closer it would be hard, at least for me, to consider the job done with its stock clocks. If you upgrade them you’re quickly at $1,600 or, e-gads, $2,400.

 

From what I’ve been able to read, these are both highly regarded interfaces. Has anyone had a chance to compare them? Any thoughts on their relative merits, even if based on their predecessors? I’m putting my list together for Santa, and I’m hoping an interface will be on it.

 

 

Link to comment

"Life was good when I thought the computer-DAC interface problem could be nicely solved for less than a grand."

 

Get a Wavelength Audio Wavelink. Under a grand, asynchronous USB and can handle files up to 24/192. I am very impressed by the performance, and am willing to bet you would be too.

 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

Link to comment

Thanks for you thoughts, barrows. I recall in one of the zillion posts I've read on the subject that you heard and quite liked the Diverter. Is that right? If so, in your opinion is the Wavelink competitive for its price or full-on competitive?

 

Link to comment

system, the Wavelink is clearly better than the Diverter. But, I am not talking about the new Diverter here-as far as I know, no one has heard either the new Diverter or the new Offramp (version 4). It would certainly not be fair to make any assumptions about the performance of the new Diverter (which is going to be 24/192 capable USB2 and asynchronous) based on the original model which I auditioned.

The Wavelink continues to impress me, and I am certainly not feeling that it is lacking in performance in any way-it certainly outperforms a very good CD transport, playing the same music, into the same DAC, with the same cabling.

 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

Link to comment

Unfortunately, you will not get much feedback on the Off-Ramp 4 yet. The first customers unit is just getting completed. Shipment is before year-end. Reviews are in process.

 

However, you might get some feedback on the Pace-Car USB, which has been out since April 2010. The Pace-Car USB is essentially the Off-Ramp 4, but with extra reclocker functions. Pace-Car USB has already been in shootouts with Wavelink, EVO, Halide and others.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

Link to comment

Tell me, Steve. I can’t really determine from your website under what conditions one would buy the Off-Ramp over the Pace-Car. It seems they both handle the role of interfacing USB to S/PDIF, but the Pace-Car does extra duty as an upsampler which is defeatable. Do I have that right? I’d guess the Off-Ramp would be cheaper since it does less, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. Can you shed some light on it?

 

 

 

 

Link to comment

My experience with the Wavelink was a little different than Barrows. It could not beat a Lynx AES 16 in my system. I don't have it anymore.

 

I ordered an Off-ramp V4 with Ultraclocks and Hynes from Steve. When I get it in my system I will post my findings.

 

I don't think the 192 Diverter is out yet, but it should also be contender. Based on my correspondance with Dave Clark at PFO, he thinks the Diverter is the best of the lot. However, I am hopeful that the Off-Ramp V4 with Ultraclocks will do much better than its predecessor.

 

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

Link to comment

Hello Everyone,

 

The Diverter 192 is almost finished, we are planning to have the first production units start shipping in 3-4 weeks. So, no comparisons available yet.

 

Should be a great winter for computer based audio with all the new USB to S/PDIF products being released!

 

Peace,

 

Lee

 

Locus Design Group[br]www.locus-design.com[br]www.cryo-parts.com[br]www.cryo-freeze.com

Link to comment

"Tell me, Steve. I can’t really determine from your website under what conditions one would buy the Off-Ramp over the Pace-Car. It seems they both handle the role of interfacing USB to S/PDIF, but the Pace-Car does extra duty as an upsampler which is defeatable. Do I have that right?"

 

Since the Pace-Car USB was available in April and the Off-Ramp 4 is only now being put into production, this is the answer. The Pace-Car USB was a method to get high-quality 192 quickly to market.

 

The Pace-Car USB has only one advantage over Off-Ramp 4 as a USB converter, and that is galvanic isolation of the I2S interface. This is only useful if you have a DAC with the proper I2S input. The Pace-Car USB can also be used to reclock a secondary device, such as Sooloos, Qsonix, Transporter or even a CD transport.

 

"I’d guess the Off-Ramp would be cheaper since it does less, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. Can you shed some light on it?"

 

Yes, this is the case. It is only a USB converter, not a multi-purpose reclocker like the Pace-Car. The Pace-Car USB uses an OEM USB module from M2Tech. The new Off-Ramp 4, which will appear on the website soon, uses a custom-designed 192 async USB module. Using my 7GHz Tek measurement system, the direct jitter (not through a DAC) at all frequencies is around 200psec. Some DACs will reduce this more. NOS DACs will not. It is not only simpler, it performs better and costs less.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

 

 

Link to comment

I wouldn't bother with any of these, especially Diverter which feeds off dirty USB power and very secretive about the innards of their device. M2tech Hiface (which is what Offramp 4 is based on) is very good in its stock form. If you really something even better, checkout the jkeny's modified hiface:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home/mk2-boxed-hiface-1

 

I really don't think that USB-to-SPDIF converters close to one grand and beyond are worth it. That money is better spend on a DAC that skips the SPDIF protocol altogether. In other words, life is still good, you can easily get superior USB-to-SPDIF converter for well under a grand. ;)

 

Link to comment

Hi XAHTP,

 

Regarding your comment about the Diverter being supplied by "dirty USB power" - I wanted to note that I've posted extensively about this subject in the past, both in this forum and others, so I won't burden everyone with a redundant response here. Anyone should be able to find the past threads without too much trouble. Of course if you've already read what I've written and have new points of discussion to bring to light, I'll do my best to respond to those.

 

As for being "secretive about the innards of the device" - what sort of disclosure would you like to see about the design, ideally speaking? I hope it is obvious that a response to this question like "a full schematic, BOM, and gerbers" isn't realistic. I've posted quite a lot about the design as well, so I'm surmising you haven't seen those threads.

 

Best,

 

Josh

 

www.sonicweld.com

Link to comment

I believe that anyone who thinks "dirty USB power" is a problem that cannot be solved is in error.

Examples of USB DACs and USB/SPDIF converters that perform quite well using USB bus power:

 

Ayre QB-9

Wavelength Audio Wavelink

Sonicweld Diverter

Audiophilleo

 

I have heard all of the above, and all of them perform very well while utilising USB power. Just like an AC supply from the wall, USB power can perform fine in this role, as long as the designer handles it properly (filtering and regulating). There are quite a few other designs that perform very well using USB power, but I am limiting my comments here to the products I have heard extensively. I would suggest not ruling out any product based on whether it uses USB power.

 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

Link to comment

"I really don't think that USB-to-SPDIF converters close to one grand and beyond are worth it. That money is better spend on a DAC that skips the SPDIF protocol altogether."

 

It would seem intuitive, however I'll tell you that even my best attempts at this are not as good as the external converter. The reason is simple: Separate power system outside the DAC and I2S interface to the DAC. If ones uses a LI battery supply, this is even better. It's like analog separates: if you can separate the power systems and signal paths, the result outperforms the same solution implemented in one box with shared power and ground-planes etc...

 

At RMAF, it was the external async USB converter powered from battery that won best of show, not the integrated async USB interface in the DAC.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

Link to comment

Well, IMO, external power supplies are not always an advantage. The shunt supplies I am using in my new DAC build need to be as close to the load as possible to offer their full advantage, more than a handful of cm. of wiring increases their output impedance. These supplies also perform better with little to no capacitance between their output and the load (generally best with just 0.1 uF right at the active devices), as larger (electrolytic) capacitors have higher impedance and noise than the shunts themselves. Putting these shunts in an external box would negate their advantages. Now it might be an advantage to place the transformers and rectification stage in an external box, and then run DC to the shunts.

In the case of USB power though, it is already DC, and also does not come with diodes generating additional RFI, or transformers and their associated magnetic fields.

Interestingly, the shunt supply also sounds significantly better than the LiFePO4 battery supply I am currently using.

Of course, as with all design decisions, how these designs are implemented will ultimately determine how well they perform.

Like I said, listen to the products in question, and do not dismiss them if they happen to use USB power. While I would prefer to listen myself, if we are quoting awards: I am aware of no digital product which has won more awards than Ayre's QB-9 DAC, despite the feud between TAS and Ayre! Guess what, the QB-9 uses USB power for its USB receiver.

 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

Link to comment

"Steve why not put the interface inside the dac (one box) and supply it with a dedicated/separate power supply .. best of both worlds?"

 

This is certainly possible, particularly in a USB-only DAC. The problem is multiple power cords and/or multiple AC adapters. Most customers only want one AC plug. The fact is that my DAC already uses 3 AC outlets as it is, so this would add a fourth. I dont thing anyone would like this. Even I dont have that many spare outlets.....

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

I just got my Off-ramp 4 with Ultraclocks and Monolith PSU. It sounds amazing right out of the box. I have used a Lynx AES16 for a while now and have tried out the Wavelength Wavelink. This Off-ramp is in a completely different category of transport to the others I have tried out in my system. I plan on writing a more complete review, but I just wanted to let you know about my initial impression of the Off-ramp 4 with Ultraclock.

 

The best compliment I can give this device is my wife's comment: "This sounds good, what did you do?" I have been through some expensive upgrades to my system like MIT MA-X oracle digital AES cable and MIT Matrix HD 120 speaker cables without any notice from the wife. Thank you very much Steve!!

 

 

 

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

Link to comment
  • 1 month later...

I have the Diverter 24/96 (not the new 192 version) with a Wireworld Starlight USB cable and used to own an Empirical Off Ramp 3. To me the better deal is the older Diverter.

 

My total outlay was 1K (used) for the Diverter and $100 for the USB cable. Just $1100 for great sound. The Off Ramp is $1200 PLUS a need for some type of improved supply. The Off Ramp 3 sounded awful without a power supply upgrade, plus Dave Clark of Positive Feedback preferred the Diverter to the Off Ramp with a battery supply and the Ultraclock!!

 

I was not satisfied with the stock Off Ramp. Steve of Empirical always makes you spend more money, whereas Josh states that there is a one box solution. The new Diverter is not that bad a deal when you consider the savings on a nice cable since it's async. It's a one box solution. A little pricey, but i figure i'd pay $500 down the road for the improvement over the Off Ramp.

 

Link to comment

"Steve of Empirical always makes you spend more money"

 

No, I just offer options to put the device at any price-performance point you want.

 

It's like buying a car without leather, without power locks, without sunroof and then complaining about this.

 

Besides, the Off-Ramp3 is discontinued and soon the original Diverter will be as well. This is ancient history. I wonder how a device that sounded so "awful" could win Golden Ear Award.....

 

Other converters are not upgradable for better power or better clocks. When new technologies come along, like LI batteries or new low-jitter clocks, its nice to be able to offer these as an upgrade.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

Link to comment

Think it is nice that Empirical Audio offers optional upgrades. The down side is that Steve does not design and build most of these upgrades himself (Hynes regulators, Ultraclocks); because they are sourced from third party companies, the cost of these upgrades is pretty high.

 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

Link to comment

Steve,

 

Naturally, the most pertinent comparisons between our products would be between currently shipping versions, but given that older versions of both are still available on the used market, I think comparisons are still relevant; the older model discontinuations are in the very recent past and are hardly ancient.

 

I can't speak to the upgradeability of any other manufacturer's devices, but I want to point out that the older Diverters (specifically, any with a BNC output) are fully upgradeable to the new version, which includes both better clocking as well as better power supplies. I took great pains to make the new version 100% mechanically compatible with the original chassis design, which was quite difficult given that the new design is considerably more dense than the old.

 

Josh

 

www.sonicweld.com

Link to comment

"Think it is nice that Empirical Audio offers optional upgrades. The down side is that Steve does not design and build most of these upgrades himself (Hynes regulators, Ultraclocks); because they are sourced from third party companies, the cost of these upgrades is pretty high."

 

All true. Some of these guys are industry experts in their areas however. There are no engineers that are the best at everything. This is why it is sometimes beneficial to leverage the best designers in the industry.

 

However, all of this is about to change as I am in the process of designing my own versions for 2011.

 

What makes sense is to compare one vendors best clock/configuration against another vendors best clock/configuration.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...