It *cannot* just be about 1's and 0's - surely?

[Jud]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Not that something couldn't be going on with this cable, but I've attended two of those demos, and no volume shenanigans at those (I provided files of recorded excerpts for one in a thread here).

 

3 hours ago, STC said:

 

 I have taken part in the so called AB test where the difference was audible. IIRC, Dr. Aix too confirmed the level difference.

 

I just checked, and though Dr. AIX (Mark Waldrep) was informed of the thread here recounting his statements that AQ turned up the volume for its power products by 2-3dB vs. another manufacturer's for the demo he attended at LAOCAS, and said he did have the recorded files, as far as I'm able to tell he never provided those either here or on his site.

 

So in the one instance I'm aware of where we've got actual data it shows no volume difference, but it appears folks here are assuming the demos are rigged by turning up the volume anyway.

 

Now it could well be that AQ has been guilty of these things in demos other than the two I attended, or of massaging the signal in the OP's USB cable so as to increase loudness.  I'm not here to vouch for them, just to note what went on at two demos.

 

Something that makes me a bit skeptical of claims of loudness tweaking at demos is that this sort of cheating is so easy to catch, and is so utterly unnecessary.  In the demo for which I provided the recorded files showing no loudness difference, what happened after the music played was simply that the AQ rep stood up, said "OK, what did you hear?", and waited expectantly.  Sure enough, one person started to describe how the AQ power equipment sounded louder/better, then others joined in.  In a roomful of people, social cues and ingrained courtesy are virtually always going to get you this result.  Knowing how to suggest a response non-verbally is trivial; most magic acts depend on it.  That's all AQ has to do, no screwing around necessary, no chance of getting caught doing anything untoward, and people will swear the AQ equipment sounded louder/better.  Just ask the question and you get the desired answer, and even better, people think it's their idea since you weren't the one to actually verbalize it.

[Mazza]

Thankyou all for the suggestions about further measurements. I have ordered a plain vanilla 3m and 1.5m cable from Amazon and a USB A-B adapter. I’ll report back. 

[STC]

3 minutes ago, Mazza said:

Thankyou all for the suggestions about further measurements. I have ordered a plain vanilla 3m and 1.5m cable from Amazon and a USB A-B adapter. I’ll report back. 

 

Why do you need the AB adapter?  

[Mazza]

14 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Why do you need the AB adapter?  

 

One of the suggested measurements I take is a data checksum 

[STC]

I may have missed that part. 

 

Anyway, believe in what you perceive and stick to that until proven otherwise. This is the best way to enjoy the music and keep yourself occasionally busy with tweaking. Speaking from personal experience, nothing we do could convince another with the opposing view.   

[alfe]

Distortion, Gain, Volume.

[rn701]

But did it lift the veil?

[Fokus]

19 hours ago, Mazza said:

I used three constant test tones/files ..... 100Hz, 1kHz and 2kHz....each 10 secs long and the increase in volume on any file was approx 2dB. So no transients, just constant tones.

 

Did you keep the position of the speakers and the microphone utterly constant between the tests, and your own relative position to them too?

 

At 1-2kHz in-room the slightest deviation may result in significant readout differences.

[Mazza]

The speakers and mic were constant. I moved around of course and there were small variations each time I did measurements... type around 0.5 dB but on the whole reasonably consistent 

[Summit]

21 hours ago, Mazza said:

Yes, USB cables are a contentious subject but bear with me please! ?

 

So, I have just swapped my 3m USB cable for a 1.5m USB that I have on loan. Same manufacturer, but 'higher-up' in their range. The USB is the link between my server and my speakers which have built in DACs and AMPS.  I wasn't expecting any noticeable change but I was wrong; the change was very noticeable:

 

 - first: it was a immediately obvious that the output volume on my speakers increased. So I checked this by swapping cables and measuring dbA levels on a sine-sweep test track that I use to calibrate levels. I was right and there was just under a 2dB vol increase when using the shorter, 'higher grade' cable over the longer 'lower grade' cable. I checked this 4x by swapping between the cables and had to adjust the pre-set on my speakers for the loaner cable.?

 

- second: there was a tangible/significant improvement in the sound by using the the shorter, 'higher grade' cable by whatever subjective assessment that I used. It was readily and easily discernible. 

What I don't get is *how* the playback volume can increase when all I am doing is shifting 1's and 0's over a 5v/3.6v cable and secondly, if the improvement in sound quality is say attributable to better rejection of EMI/RFI from my source to the DAC, or control of jitter, can it *really* be so significant over a length of 1.5m?

 

It was a discussion in another thread here on CA where one device (AL) made a higher sound pressure (SPL), and many people doubt it and said that a better gear will always be preserved as sounding quieter because of less noise. In my experience and knowledge both can happened when noise degrees and to understand why we need to see how noise work in an audio system IRL.

 

A cable is by its shape and design an excellent antenna and a longer cable is a better antenna, all else held equal. It’s because it is such an excellent antenna by default we have to take extra care with cables so to NOT  make them act as antennas at all. We want only the digital audio signal to be transmitted and not all the air born noise that we have in our homes and that comes from the neighbours Wi-Fi, our Wi-Fi, the mobile telephone net, television broadcasting and SMPS noise from hundreds of gear that are connected to the same mains power as you. Many of those types of noise can get air born and the level of EMC, EMI, RFI and so on in many homes are not calculated for in the textbooks that was written even 10 years ago. Every year we get more and more noise pollutions in our homes because we get more apparatus that has a computer part inside and that are sending and receive data.

 

@elcorso wrote “Less noise = more music reaching the ears / brain system?”

 

I agree with @elcorso on that. If you have an audio system and switch out one component that generate a lot of noise (or that pick up a lot of noise) and instead use one that don’t generate a lot of noise (or that pick up a lot of noise), we CAN get both a lower and a higher SPL.

 

So if we change from one cable that will act more as an antenna for air born noise to one that pic up less noise two thing can happen. We get a stronger signal because of less noise. This is the same for an analogue device, like an amp. With less noise we get a clearer and higher signal, and a clearer signal will have better signal energy and less energy that goes to waste as blur that soften the sound. It’s in the DAC that converts digital 1s and 0s to analogue value the noise that has been picked up by the cable will be shown (measurements) and heard.

 

How about all the time we want to turn down the volume because of a strident or harsh sound? Yes that is very common too and is also an effect of HF/RFI noise and instead of soften the sound it add noise in the higher frequencies that harshen the treble and make it sound lounder because what we don’t like we preserve as lounder. IME a great way of testing audio gear, fast in a shop for example, is to listen pretty loud and if you get the feeling that you want to turn the volume down with some gear plugged in but not with another it can be a sign that not everything is tip top. Of course the record has be good and NOT one that is harsh, strident or over compressed.   

[Solstice380]

7 hours ago, esldude said:

Perhaps  @Mazza could remeasure with white noise or pink noise using REW and report if the values are about 2 db different with that signal.  Displaying the REW graphs would be nice too even for the tones if you kept them.  

 

I think @PeterSt may be onto something - frequency spectrum change and maybe room interaction - so @esldude ‘s recommendation of looking at the frequency data from REW and not just the dB level may provide clues.

[elcorso]

12 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Once the Blaxius warmed up enough to be flexible enough to make connections, I installed it. Right away there was just so much more of everything good. The bass/lower range actually sounded overwhelming (for lack of a better word) at first listen but it wasn't bad bass. Just more.

 

This is so true (for my taste and equipment) that I have not had to adjust the output of my subwoofers ...

 

Maybe this can affect why I perceive more SPL?

 

But from the microphones too? Interesting !

 

Roch

[EdmontonCanuck]

17 hours ago, gmgraves said:

It could be anything. I know what AQ says is in it; a 72v battery to "bias" the shield, but who knows? 

 

 

What happens to the SQ if you remove the battery?

[daverich4]

1 hour ago, EdmontonCanuck said:

 

 

What happens to the SQ if you remove the battery?

 

Don't know about the Audioquest digital cables but with my AQ analog interconnect and speaker cables the answer to your question about removing the batteries is, nothing. 

[esldude]

8 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

 

I think @PeterSt may be onto something - frequency spectrum change and maybe room interaction - so @esldude ‘s recommendation of looking at the frequency data from REW and not just the dB level may provide clues.

I really don't think that is likely, but doing a noise or sweep measurement would show that.  For instance suppose it is a minor frequency change that just happens at 1 khz to cause a peak where the microphone is and another cable lets it run at 1.0002 khz and you get no peak.  In this case we'd have to have that also happen at 100 hz, 1khz and 2 khz.  That is unlikely. 

 

I'd think if you have a solid 2 db or near it volume change then the cable or other activity of the gear is changing bits.  You are not going to get this effect from unnoticeable dropouts or other things that have been mentioned.  

[EdmontonCanuck]

3 hours ago, daverich4 said:

 

Don't know about the Audioquest digital cables but with my AQ analog interconnect and speaker cables the answer to your question about removing the batteries is, nothing. 

 

Yeah, that's what I thought the answer would be

[davide256]

On 12/14/2018 at 6:28 PM, gmgraves said:

There is no harmonic structure or any dynamics. The USB cable is passing DATA. The USB cable has no way of knowing what the data represents; it could be e-mail messages, video, 3-D rendering, anything! The fact that it is audio should be totally irrelevant. That's what makes this so damn puzzling. If the USB cable is changing the audio, it means it's changing the data and it can't, It's just a pair of wires in a sheath with two other wires carrying a nominal five volts. 

I agree it can't change the data... but the clocking of that data seems to be the fail part of USB . I do find it interesting that Audiolinux  makes an ISO Regen reclocker not necessary on the same devices where other OS's did need its help.

[gmgraves]

On 12/14/2018 at 4:04 PM, mansr said:

A device that intercepts and alters USB audio data while otherwise being completely invisible to the endpoints would not be difficult to create. Although I wouldn't put it past AQ to do that, I still think some other explanation is more likely.

Me too.

[gmgraves]

On 12/14/2018 at 4:15 PM, elcorso said:

 

Less noise = more music reaching the ears / brain system?

No. Apparently, this  2 dB of volume increase is measurable. Better S/N might cause a subjective increase in volume, but I'm not even sure of that! 

On 12/14/2018 at 4:15 PM, elcorso said:

 

I do not know if it will be an additional 2dB of loudness, I do not do these kind of measurements, but I do know the noise that the USB cables emit (to the near environment), particularly USB 3.00

I can't comment of USB3, I have nothing that uses it, although my computer supports it. 

 

[gmgraves]

On 12/14/2018 at 4:00 PM, crenca said:

 

It's probably this:

 

 

 

I don't like Rosie O'Donnell very much (I think she's a PITA, frankly), but this was uncalled for (IMHO)!

[esldude]

45 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I agree it can't change the data... but the clocking of that data seems to be the fail part of USB . I do find it interesting that Audiolinux  makes an ISO Regen reclocker not necessary on the same devices where other OS's did need its help.

This makes little sense.  A strength of USB input is the clock right next to the DAC gets used.  That clock is also freely running (the best most accurate way) without being timed to anything else.  While poor implementation could let noise across the USB effect that clock somewhat, the whole idea has been wildly  over-blown compared to issues with almost any other connection method (all of which slave a local clock to another one).  

[gmgraves]

On 12/14/2018 at 4:08 PM, Hugo9000 said:

First of all, it was Philips that came up with the "pure, perfect sound forever" marketing phrase, not Sony.  Second, that "attitude" that they ascribe to or blame on Sony is pure b.s., as Sony and Philips each claimed to have better-sounding CD players than the competition.  Either AudioQuest is abysmally lazy, or willfully dishonest, or both.  At any rate, before slandering another company, they had the responsibility to fact check their own claim.

 

When the first players came on the market, I listened to the original Sony CDP-101 with several CDs I brought back from a business trip to Japan. It had just been released here in the USA. I thought the Sony sounded very "rough" and unmusical. I remember saying to myself that CD will never take off if this is the level of sonic performance that we can suspect! Then, at a Bay Area Audio Society meeting (I wasn't a member, but I had a friend who was. I used to tag along with him when they did something that I found interesting), Someone had brought a little Philips CD-100 to the meeting that he had apparently picked-up in Europe (I don't know how he powered it. he must have had 120 to 220 transformer someplace or perhaps the European version had a voltage switch on the back like so many European electronic products do - Revox A77, for instance). One listen to that little player made a convert out of me. Where the Sony sounded crude and harsh, the little Philips unit was smooth and extended with a very analog-like upper register (when playing the same CD that I had auditioned the Sony with: Japanese mastered Beethoven 6th Symphony with Bruno Walter  and the New York Phiharmonic.) Early CDs were extremely variable; some sounded fine, others sounded like home-made excrement! The Beethoven 6th was one of the better ones. 

Anyway, I was so impressed with the little player that I searched for several months to find somewhere in the greater San Francisco Bay Area that sold the Philips deck. I never did find the Philips unit, but I did find a dealer (and only one in the fall of 1985) that sold the Magnavox FD-1000, which is the same unit. I wanted it so bad that I drove (on my "lunch hour") more than 50 miles each way, south to Salinas California, to plunk down almost $600 for the little "Maggy". I never regretted it and kept is for a good 6 or 7 years. When I replaced it with a California Audio Systems player, I passed the Magnavox unit on to a friend of mine who lives in Seattle. He still uses it to this day! IOW, after more than 30 years, it still works and still gives it's owner listening pleasure! 

[gmgraves]

On 12/14/2018 at 4:20 PM, esldude said:

I also notice AQ in their USB copy saying:

All insulation between two or more conductors is also a dielectric whose properties will affect the integrity of the signal. When the dielectric is unbiased, dielectric-involvement (absorption and non-linear release of energy) causes different amounts of time delay (phase shift) for different frequencies and energy levels, which is a real problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio. The inclusion of an RF Trap (developed for AudioQuest’s Niagara Series of power products), ensures that radio frequency noise will not be induced into the signal conductors from the DBS field elements. (DBS, US Pat #s 7,126,055 & 7,872,195 B1)

 

While audio is multi-octave the transmission of data about that is irrelevant.  This is just balderdash to sound technical to those not thinking about what this means. 

Their "theory" (used as a noun) is spot-on. However these well known phenomena only occur at VHF and UHF frequencies (like so much cable marketing nonsense masquerading as electronic theory). Of course, audio falls into neither VHF nor UHF territory, and this cable is carrying data not an audio-frequency signal! 

[gmgraves]

On 12/14/2018 at 4:35 PM, esldude said:

So did the Behringer measurement mic get confused?

Nothing wrong with Behringer mikes. I have a number of them that come in-handy for vocals, choruses, spot mikes and the like. 

[esldude]

1 minute ago, gmgraves said:

Nothing wrong with Behringer mikes. I have a number of them that come in-handy for vocals, choruses, spot mikes and the like. 

My comment was not to disparage the Behringer mikes.  It was about a comment that our ears get confused hearing less noise as louder.  My point being so since the mikes measured it louder did they get confused as well?