Hugo9000 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 What's in this thing? USB has power, so perhaps this is an active device, and not that battery-attached-to-a-shield-or-whatever thing AQ does on their analog interconnects and speaker cables. Apple and Google pack a DAC and HP amp into the end of a tiny USB-C headphone adapter. This thing is enormous by comparison. 请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子 Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 37 minutes ago, Jud said: It's a well known effect that louder sounds better, and though you may think you can somehow mitigate the subjective SQ improvement by some mental feat like intense concentration, it really isn't so. That's just how our ear-brain system is wired. You are right Jud. That’s why I was careful to equalise the volume before I did my listening. Jud 1 Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Popular Post JohnSwenson Posted December 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 One possibility is actually the cable length. I have measured error rates with different lengths and found that many 3m and longer cables do in fact have significant error rates. As has been mentioned this MAY cause something in the system to be changing state which is responsible for the loudness difference. Or it could be that whatever you are using to measure the volume is getting confused by the dropped packets and what that does to the waveform. Do you have a scope or any way to look at the waveform coming out of the DAC? It would be interesting to see if you are getting any waveform distortion. John S. gstew and One and a half 2 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 are you measuring the volume with a volt meter at the speaker terminals? you mentioned a mic, but try the above Link to comment
esldude Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 51 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: are you measuring the volume with a volt meter at the speaker terminals? you mentioned a mic, but try the above This plus 5 million. Get a voltmeter and see what is happening at the speaker terminals. What you are claiming is INcredible. I'm not questioning your motives or honesty, just that your method of measurement isn't a very good way to check this. For the money involved in all these cables order some okay multi-meter for cheap on Amazon ($40). It'll be useful at other times in your audio adventures. Or maybe you know someone with a basic multi-meter that could measure the voltages. Are you laying your phone in one location and changing cables without moving the phone at all and checking this? If you are hand holding it then all bets are off. Jud 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: are you measuring the volume with a volt meter at the speaker terminals? His speakers have amps and DAC built-in so there are no speaker terminals that he can use. So the USB cable is going directly into one speaker, and then perhaps a proprietary connection from one speaker to the other.... Firedog probably clear this up. Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Hugo9000 said: What's in this thing? USB has power, so perhaps this is an active device, and not that battery-attached-to-a-shield-or-whatever thing AQ does on their analog interconnects and speaker cables. Apple and Google pack a DAC and HP amp into the end of a tiny USB-C headphone adapter. This thing is enormous by comparison. Is this the USB cable (that is obviously more than a cable) the OP is using? Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 24 minutes ago, crenca said: Is this the USB cable (that is obviously more than a cable) the OP is using? Looks like it could be, there are two in the range that have this. Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Mazza said: Looks like it could be, there are two in the range that have this. Does the one your using have this? Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Jud Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 I think that may still be the same battery/shield setup as the analog cables. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Hugo9000 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 28 minutes ago, crenca said: Is this the USB cable (that is obviously more than a cable) the OP is using? That pic shows the "magic thingy" on the AudioQuest Diamond USB cable, which is what the OP said he is testing. 请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子 Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 30 minutes ago, crenca said: His speakers have amps and DAC built-in so there are no speaker terminals that he can use. So the USB cable is going directly into one speaker, and then perhaps a proprietary connection from one speaker to the other.... Firedog probably clear this up. Thanks @crenca, yes you are correct. No speaker terminals. So I used a Behringer mic on tripod, REW software to measure. Test tones played off a file on server. USB cable connects to digital controller of the Kiis. This connects to the two speakers by cat 5 cable. @esldude: don’t use phone for measurements. No options for test meter etc etc because no speaker terminals Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Hugo9000 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Jud said: I think that may still be the same battery/shield setup as the analog cables. I think they say that it's the same, but we only have their word for it (and haven't they been caught using a few "tricks" in their demos over the years? lol). USB cables have power, so it could be more than what's on their analog cables. As far as I know, there are no tear-downs of this device on their USB cables. I'm not curious enough to buy one to open it up, just as I never bothered with any of the MIT cables that had little boxes, either. 请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子 Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, crenca said: Does the one your using have this? To clarify... my original AQ cable (cinnamon) does not have this, the new AQ cable (Diamond) does. They fit it to a number of their various cable range inc analogue cables. It is some form of dialelectric bias system. Don’t claim to understand how it works. Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said: I think they say that it's the same, but we only have their word for it (and haven't they been caught using a few "tricks" in their demos over the years? lol). USB cables have power, so it could be more than what's on their analog cables. As far as I know, there are no tear-downs of this device on their USB cables. I'm not curious enough to buy one to open it up, just as I never bothered with any of the MIT cables that had little boxes, either. Just now, Mazza said: To clarify... my original AQ cable (cinnamon) does not have this, the new AQ cable (Diamond) does. They fit it to a number of their various cable range inc analogue cables. It is some form of dialelectric bias system. Don’t claim to understand how it works. Well, unless it has DAC/DSP capability built in (not entirely out of the realm of possibility in audiophiledom cable world), I don't see how it could be the cause of your experience directly. I suppose coming back to mansr speculation, it could be somehow causing the endpoints to do funky USB speed/driver changes but this explanation is long shot as it is... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
phosphorein Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, crenca said: Well, unless it has DAC/DSP capability built in (not entirely out of the realm of possibility in audiophiledom cable world), I don't see how it could be the cause of your experience directly. I suppose coming back to mansr speculation, it could be somehow causing the endpoints to do funky USB speed/driver changes but this explanation is long shot as it is... Given the history of Audioquest as noted above, I would suspect any cable containing extraneous active/electrical circuitry. The Kii controller hasn’t shown any undue behavior with well behaved cables in my experience. PleasantSounds 1 Link to comment
One and a half Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 @Mazza, do you have MusicScope? Rather than use sine waves for testing, try to analyse what’s missing from the frequency spectrum to cause the drop in loudness , MusicScope will advise. Or perhaps Audacity, but that program can give false results while looking setup correctly. Another reason could be the longer cable having more capacitance is holding charge longer than the short one causing the driver or receiver to interpret data that’s just not there. If you place the two cables in series you might end up with corrupted signals, and will show up as clicks and pops. An alternative is to use a 3m printer cable and check this operation and the sound level. With the longer cable the corruption may just may just be below the threshold of pain. @mansr advice could also be another reason due to cable length the OS is switching gears. Interesting problem. Something kii could have picked up in the development and didn’t use audiophile cabling. AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
esldude Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Mazza said: Thanks @crenca, yes you are correct. No speaker terminals. So I used a Behringer mic on tripod, REW software to measure. Test tones played off a file on server. USB cable connects to digital controller of the Kiis. This connects to the two speakers by cat 5 cable. @esldude: don’t use phone for measurements. No options for test meter etc etc because no speaker terminals Okay, I missed where you said it was Behringer measurement mic. And didn't realize it was the Kii speakers. I'd suggest as someone else has that you try a plain USB cable and see which version it matches up with on sound level. It wouldn't be beyond AQ to have a little circuitry to boost volume so their cable 'sounds' better. In which case it is just about the ones and zeroes. Would be nice if you knew someone with a recording interface that could record the digital signal coming out of the AQ cable and a plain one. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 9 hours ago, Mazza said: Yes, USB cables are a contentious subject but bear with me please! ? So, I have just swapped my 3m USB cable for a 1.5m USB that I have on loan. Same manufacturer, but 'higher-up' in their range. The USB is the link between my server and my speakers which have built in DACs and AMPS. I wasn't expecting any noticeable change but I was wrong; the change was very noticeable: - first: it was a immediately obvious that the output volume on my speakers increased. So I checked this by swapping cables and measuring dbA levels on a sine-sweep test track that I use to calibrate levels. I was right and there was just under a 2dB vol increase when using the shorter, 'higher grade' cable over the longer 'lower grade' cable. I checked this 4x by swapping between the cables and had to adjust the pre-set on my speakers for the loaner cable.? Well that certainly makes no sense, does it? If the check sums at both ends of the cable are the same, then there should be no difference, and there should be an overall level difference. least of all! 9 hours ago, Mazza said: - second: there was a tangible/significant improvement in the sound by using the the shorter, 'higher grade' cable by whatever subjective assessment that I used. It was readily and easily discernible. What I don't get is *how* the playback volume can increase when all I am doing is shifting 1's and 0's over a 5v/3.6v cable and secondly, if the improvement in sound quality is say attributable to better rejection of EMI/RFI from my source to the DAC, or control of jitter, can it *really* be so significant over a length of 1.5m? The "sonic improvement" you heard could be marked down to expectational bias (or it's handmaiden, confirmation bias). Not saying it is, you understand, but at least that's a way to explain the unexplainable. While a measured difference (such as a definite 2 dB volume change) simply can't be as easily dismissed. Were we talking about an analog cable, I could postulate that the manufacturer is playing with LRC in his cables to make his higher-priced spread sound "better", but there is no way that a pair of wires in a USB cable can change the check sums of the ones and zeros to alter the volume or the sound. Tis a puzzlement! George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 9 hours ago, Fokus said: Either that cable multiplied all data with 1.258, or it made the individual 1s and 0s 1.258 times heavier. Bofus? George Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 I suspect the cable is generating gauge particles with a rapid decay, thereby creating mass over short distances by interacting with the Higgs mechanism in your DAC mansr and crenca 2 Link to comment
Jud Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Hugo9000 said: I think they say that it's the same, but we only have their word for it (and haven't they been caught using a few "tricks" in their demos over the years? lol) Not that something couldn't be going on with this cable, but I've attended two of those demos, and no volume shenanigans at those (I provided files of recorded excerpts for one in a thread here). One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 8 hours ago, davide256 said: Clocking accuracy matters. Clocking degradation damages harmonic structure integrity and dynamics. You could also try the Lush 2 cable if you want a real treat, its Faraday cage like shielding mechanism works for improving USB audio. But you may be happy with the AQ Diamond you have ? There is no harmonic structure or any dynamics. The USB cable is passing DATA. The USB cable has no way of knowing what the data represents; it could be e-mail messages, video, 3-D rendering, anything! The fact that it is audio should be totally irrelevant. That's what makes this so damn puzzling. If the USB cable is changing the audio, it means it's changing the data and it can't, It's just a pair of wires in a sheath with two other wires carrying a nominal five volts. George Link to comment
esldude Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, gmgraves said: There is no harmonic structure or any dynamics. The USB cable is passing DATA. The USB cable has no way of knowing what the data represents; it could be e-mail messages, video, 3-D rendering, anything! The fact that it is audio should be totally irrelevant. That's what makes this so damn puzzling. If the USB cable is changing the audio, it means it's changing the data and it can't, It's just a pair of wires in a sheath with two other wires carrying a nominal five volts. Except in this case George there is a big electronic box on it. Larger than some portable DACs like the Dragonfly. Would be easy to have some chips that provide a digital boost to the data making it 2 db louder. So in this case maybe it isn't just two power wires and two differential data wires. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 6 hours ago, mansr said: I can think of one vaguely plausible explanation along those lines. Suppose the long cable is so poor that it drops down to USB 1.1 full speed while the short one manages to support USB 2.0 high speed. As a result, different OS drivers might get used, or the DAC might be otherwise differently identified. This in turn could lead to different saved volume settings being applied. A lot of ifs and mights, but it's not entirely impossible. Unlikely, but, then, even an unlikely explanation is better than none. USB 1.1 is fast enough to pass 96 KHz audio (IIRC), but if he were listening to 24/192 or DSD over USB1.1 (for some reason), I suspect that SOMETHING will happen! George Link to comment
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