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It *cannot* just be about 1's and 0's - surely?


Mazza

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Yes, USB cables are a contentious subject but bear with me please! ?

 

So, I have just swapped my 3m USB cable for a 1.5m USB that I have on loan. Same manufacturer, but 'higher-up' in their range. The USB is the link between my server and my speakers which have built in DACs and AMPS.  I wasn't expecting any noticeable change but I was wrong; the change was very noticeable:

 

 - first: it was a immediately obvious that the output volume on my speakers increased. So I checked this by swapping cables and measuring dbA levels on a sine-sweep test track that I use to calibrate levels. I was right and there was just under a 2dB vol increase when using the shorter, 'higher grade' cable over the longer 'lower grade' cable. I checked this 4x by swapping between the cables and had to adjust the pre-set on my speakers for the loaner cable.?

 

- second: there was a tangible/significant improvement in the sound by using the the shorter, 'higher grade' cable by whatever subjective assessment that I used. It was readily and easily discernible. 


What I don't get is *how* the playback volume can increase when all I am doing is shifting 1's and 0's over a 5v/3.6v cable and secondly, if the improvement in sound quality is say attributable to better rejection of EMI/RFI from my source to the DAC, or control of jitter, can it *really* be so significant over a length of 1.5m?

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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1 minute ago, Fokus said:

 

Either that cable multiplied all data with 1.258, or it made the individual 1s and 0s 1.258 times heavier.

 

 

?

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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1 hour ago, Mazza said:

Yes, USB cables are a contentious subject but bear with me please! ?

.....

 - first: it was a immediately obvious that the output volume on my speakers increased. So I checked this by swapping cables and measuring dbA levels on a sine-sweep test track that I use to calibrate levels. I was right and there was just under a 2dB vol increase when using the shorter, 'higher grade' cable over the longer 'lower grade' cable. I checked this 4x by swapping between the cables and had to adjust the pre-set on my speakers for the loaner cable.?

.....


What I don't get is *how* the playback volume can increase when all I am doing is shifting 1's and 0's over a 5v/3.6v cable and secondly, if the improvement in sound quality is say attributable to better rejection of EMI/RFI from my source to the DAC, or control of jitter, can it *really* be so significant over a length of 1.5m?

 

Think of the 2db as an average... of greater transient peaks.  Like increasing the contrast on your video monitor.

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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3 minutes ago, davide256 said:

 

Think of the 2db as an average... of greater transient peaks.  Like increasing the contrast on your video monitor.

 

Not sure if that is what it is ...... I used three constant test tones/files ..... 100Hz, 1kHz and 2kHz....each 10 secs long and the increase in volume on any file was approx 2dB. So no transients, just constant tones.

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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52 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Clocking accuracy  matters. Clocking degradation damages harmonic structure integrity and dynamics.  You could also try the Lush 2 cable if you want a real treat,  its Faraday cage like shielding mechanism works for improving USB audio. But you may be happy with the AQ Diamond you have ?

 

Thanks davide256: the AQ Diamond you refer to is what I am changing to and is what is giving me the big changes; it uses a 72vDC diaelectric-something-or-other (I don't claim to understand it)....maybe that is contributing to the faraday effect you mention

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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7 minutes ago, crenca said:

As to your experience, the most likely explanation is your missing something unobvious but nevertheless not related to the cables at all except maybe ancilar way, like how you bump the volume control when you change cables ?

 

Yes, but it's puzzling as to what it could be, certainly it is not bumping the volume control, because I am measuring the volume of the sound using a Behringer mic. My ref isn't just some notches on a volume dial.

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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10 minutes ago, Archimago said:

Mazza,

If this is true that an AQ Diamond is able to cause a 2dB volume difference over the USB digital interface (I assume this is to your Kii THREE system), doesn't this speak poorly of the Kii's digital design?

 

If this is true, does the company then warn people in the manual that the USB cable can make quite a significant impact on the sound because for whatever reason it's remarkably sensitive to timing or noise!? Maybe list a few "optimal" cables to purchase? Perhaps they should then have included a USB cable with the package to ensure that end-users are not ending up with inferior sound. Who knows, if this is true, then different cables might have even more effect - +/-3dB? +/-6dB with 15' cables anyone?

 

Kinda sucks to purchase a Kii system if this is true. [Which I highly doubt.]

 

Thanks Archimago: On the contrary, Kii are pretty laissez-faire about the influence of cables and quite rightly so. After all everything is in the digital domain, no analogue interfaces (except some internal ones to the speakers). I don't know if it is the cable length that is making a difference, it's just that those are the two cable lengths I have.

 

Of course, the volume change is academic except that I have been careful to ensure that the perceived improvement in SQ is not down to volume change. That is something I was a keen to correct before I did the extended listening around.

 

I have to say the Kii's are stunning and I have nothing but praise for them....everything I do to my system just seems to bring out more and more musicality and resolution out of them.

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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5 minutes ago, Mazza said:

 

I have to say the Kii's are stunning and I have nothing but praise for them....everything I do to my system just seems to bring out more and more musicality and resolution out of them.

 

Well, there is your explanation.  In the audiophile art of system tweaking, everything leads to more "musicality", more "resolution", more (where is Ralf Arnott when you need him).

 

What are you selling?

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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1 minute ago, Mazza said:

 

Thanks for the supportive words.

 

I am not trying to push any cable agenda, in fact if you go back to my OP I deliberately didn't mention cable or equipment so to avoid any fanboy accusations. There is merely a phenomena which I don't understand which I put to the forum to ask if anyone knows better.

 

I can hardly imagine the forums are going to get into a frenzy over this small matter!!!!!

 

But thank for your contribution

 

Your welcome, but I and many others (certainly those who lean to the real and "objective") are not here to "support" you.  It is not about therapy, but the truth.  In the end, if folks are to be helped the truth must be involved.  I don't see the truth in your experience or in your post.  I could be wrong, and will admit it if I am, but I suspect this cable testimonial thread will end up just like the rest of them...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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3 minutes ago, Mazza said:

 

Here we go, the insults start. I am not selling anything, I merely asked if anyone knows why I got an odd result

 

If it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, and poops like a duck, it probably is a duck.  Of course, you already knew this.  

 

If you experience is real and has a realistic explanation that is really related to USB/digital communication (the 1's and 0's of your titillating subject line), then I will offer a mea culpa, not for insulting you (which is a red herring on your part) but for doubting your experience.  

 

Until then, it's a UFO sighting...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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1 minute ago, mansr said:

I can think of one vaguely plausible explanation along those lines. Suppose the long cable is so poor that it drops down to USB 1.1 full speed while the short one manages to support USB 2.0 high speed. As a result, different OS drivers might get used, or the DAC might be otherwise differently identified. This in turn could lead to different saved volume settings being applied. A lot of ifs and mights, but it's not entirely impossible.

 

Yes, the OS (of either end) switching drivers...The OP mentions a "server" - does he have (if user configurable) a "bit perfect" (turning off all OS DSP processing) on said server, and is it really ever truly defeatable...but like you say possible but many ifs

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

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Thanks @mansr and @crenca .... you might have something there, the OS on the transmitter end and on the receiver ends are just a 'black box' with no user configurability, but the Kii's do a lot of DSP, so maybe that is where it is?

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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19 minutes ago, Mazza said:

 

Yep, maybe you are right. Odd that I can make this UFO re-appear again and again with these two cables. Just don't know why. ??

 

As the others have noted, this is indeed an odd "UFO" type of observation.

 

Given that you're not hearing data corruption (which would be obvious), in order for digital data to sound simply softer, it would require some kind of detection of the different cables and manipulation to the data or the device settings to result in amplitude reduction.

 

While a 2dB reduction is not a big deal when we're listening to modern hi-res devices with plenty of resolution, it does still imply something has changed which presumably should not. And since the playback "system" includes the DAC which you're connecting and in this case your active speakers, you need to look at what's going on there rather than focus on the cable itself. Time to ask Kii why this is happening.

 

Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile.

Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism.

:nomqa: R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Archimago said:

Mazza,

If this is true that an AQ Diamond is able to cause a 2dB volume difference over the USB digital interface (I assume this is to your Kii THREE system), doesn't this speak poorly of the Kii's digital design?

 

If this is true, does the company then warn people in the manual that the USB cable can make quite a significant impact on the sound because for whatever reason it's remarkably sensitive to timing or noise!? Maybe list a few "optimal" cables to purchase? Perhaps they should then have included a USB cable with the package to ensure that end-users are not ending up with inferior sound. Who knows, if this is true, then different cables might have even more effect - +/-3dB? +/-6dB with 15' cables anyone?

 

Kinda sucks to purchase a Kii system if this is true. [Which I highly doubt.]

Haven't experienced anything like that with my Kiis. They seem to be pretty oblivious to tweaks. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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1 hour ago, Archimago said:

 

While a 2dB reduction is not a big deal when we're listening to modern hi-res devices with plenty of resolution, it does still imply something has changed which presumably should not. And since the playback "system" includes the DAC which you're connecting and in this case your active speakers, you need to look at what's going on there rather than focus on the cable itself. Time to ask Kii why this is happening.

  

You are absolutely right.  Per se, I don’t really give a hoot  the vol change other than it surprised mand the volume thing has peaked my curiosity. I think your point and the same by mansa and Franca, that it  is more likely to be something with the Kii’s is a more likely explanation than cable properties. 

Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller

Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads

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