Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Yes, USB cables are a contentious subject but bear with me please! ? So, I have just swapped my 3m USB cable for a 1.5m USB that I have on loan. Same manufacturer, but 'higher-up' in their range. The USB is the link between my server and my speakers which have built in DACs and AMPS. I wasn't expecting any noticeable change but I was wrong; the change was very noticeable: - first: it was a immediately obvious that the output volume on my speakers increased. So I checked this by swapping cables and measuring dbA levels on a sine-sweep test track that I use to calibrate levels. I was right and there was just under a 2dB vol increase when using the shorter, 'higher grade' cable over the longer 'lower grade' cable. I checked this 4x by swapping between the cables and had to adjust the pre-set on my speakers for the loaner cable.? - second: there was a tangible/significant improvement in the sound by using the the shorter, 'higher grade' cable by whatever subjective assessment that I used. It was readily and easily discernible. What I don't get is *how* the playback volume can increase when all I am doing is shifting 1's and 0's over a 5v/3.6v cable and secondly, if the improvement in sound quality is say attributable to better rejection of EMI/RFI from my source to the DAC, or control of jitter, can it *really* be so significant over a length of 1.5m? BigAlMc 1 Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Popular Post Fokus Posted December 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 23 minutes ago, Mazza said: What I don't get is *how* the playback volume can increase when all I am doing is shifting 1's and 0's over a 5v/3.6v cable and secondly, Either that cable multiplied all data with 1.258, or it made the individual 1s and 0s 1.258 times heavier. crenca, esldude and mansr 2 1 Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Fokus said: Either that cable multiplied all data with 1.258, or it made the individual 1s and 0s 1.258 times heavier. ? Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
davide256 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Clocking accuracy matters. Clocking degradation damages harmonic structure integrity and dynamics. You could also try the Lush 2 cable if you want a real treat, its Faraday cage like shielding mechanism works for improving USB audio. But you may be happy with the AQ Diamond you have ? Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
davide256 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Mazza said: Yes, USB cables are a contentious subject but bear with me please! ? ..... - first: it was a immediately obvious that the output volume on my speakers increased. So I checked this by swapping cables and measuring dbA levels on a sine-sweep test track that I use to calibrate levels. I was right and there was just under a 2dB vol increase when using the shorter, 'higher grade' cable over the longer 'lower grade' cable. I checked this 4x by swapping between the cables and had to adjust the pre-set on my speakers for the loaner cable.? ..... What I don't get is *how* the playback volume can increase when all I am doing is shifting 1's and 0's over a 5v/3.6v cable and secondly, if the improvement in sound quality is say attributable to better rejection of EMI/RFI from my source to the DAC, or control of jitter, can it *really* be so significant over a length of 1.5m? Think of the 2db as an average... of greater transient peaks. Like increasing the contrast on your video monitor. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, davide256 said: Think of the 2db as an average... of greater transient peaks. Like increasing the contrast on your video monitor. Not sure if that is what it is ...... I used three constant test tones/files ..... 100Hz, 1kHz and 2kHz....each 10 secs long and the increase in volume on any file was approx 2dB. So no transients, just constant tones. Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 52 minutes ago, davide256 said: Clocking accuracy matters. Clocking degradation damages harmonic structure integrity and dynamics. You could also try the Lush 2 cable if you want a real treat, its Faraday cage like shielding mechanism works for improving USB audio. But you may be happy with the AQ Diamond you have ? Thanks davide256: the AQ Diamond you refer to is what I am changing to and is what is giving me the big changes; it uses a 72vDC diaelectric-something-or-other (I don't claim to understand it)....maybe that is contributing to the faraday effect you mention Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Mazza said: Yes, USB cables are a contentious subject but bear with me please! ? So, I have just swapped my 3m USB cable for a 1.5m USB that I have on loan. Same manufacturer, but 'higher-up' in their range. The USB is the link between my server and my speakers which have built in DACs and AMPS. I wasn't expecting any noticeable change but I was wrong; the change was very noticeable: - first: it was a immediately obvious that the output volume on my speakers increased. So I checked this by swapping cables and measuring dbA levels on a sine-sweep test track that I use to calibrate levels. I was right and there was just under a 2dB vol increase when using the shorter, 'higher grade' cable over the longer 'lower grade' cable. I checked this 4x by swapping between the cables and had to adjust the pre-set on my speakers for the loaner cable.? - second: there was a tangible/significant improvement in the sound by using the the shorter, 'higher grade' cable by whatever subjective assessment that I used. It was readily and easily discernible. What I don't get is *how* the playback volume can increase when all I am doing is shifting 1's and 0's over a 5v/3.6v cable and secondly, if the improvement in sound quality is say attributable to better rejection of EMI/RFI from my source to the DAC, or control of jitter, can it *really* be so significant over a length of 1.5m? As Fokus is alluding to, the nature of a digital signal is such that it is very difficult (as in really really difficult) to even conceive of how a change at the physical layer caused by the cable length, or build materials, or design, or fill_in_the_blank Audiophile speculation/belief/myth could lead to an alteration of the signal in just such a way that would lead to all the bits being modified in just such a way to a perfect multiplication of the bits to lead to a perfect db increase (with not apparent side effects). davide256 recommendation to "think like" (in this case, comparing digital communication to "contrast") is at the root of so many of the rabit holes in Audiophiledom. As to your experience, the most likely explanation is your missing something unobvious but nevertheless not related to the cables at all except maybe ancilar way, like how you bump the volume control when you change cables ? Ralf11, kumakuma, esldude and 1 other 3 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post Archimago Posted December 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 Mazza, If this is true that an AQ Diamond is able to cause a 2dB volume difference over the USB digital interface (I assume this is to your Kii THREE system), doesn't this speak poorly of the Kii's digital design? If this is true, does the company then warn people in the manual that the USB cable can make quite a significant impact on the sound because for whatever reason it's remarkably sensitive to timing or noise!? Maybe list a few "optimal" cables to purchase? Perhaps they should then have included a USB cable with the package to ensure that end-users are not ending up with inferior sound. Who knows, if this is true, then different cables might have even more effect - +/-3dB? +/-6dB with 15' cables anyone? Kinda sucks to purchase a Kii system if this is true. [Which I highly doubt.] esldude and semente 1 1 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, crenca said: As to your experience, the most likely explanation is your missing something unobvious but nevertheless not related to the cables at all except maybe ancilar way, like how you bump the volume control when you change cables ? Yes, but it's puzzling as to what it could be, certainly it is not bumping the volume control, because I am measuring the volume of the sound using a Behringer mic. My ref isn't just some notches on a volume dial. Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, Archimago said: Mazza, If this is true that an AQ Diamond is able to cause a 2dB volume difference over the USB digital interface (I assume this is to your Kii THREE system), doesn't this speak poorly of the Kii's digital design? If this is true, does the company then warn people in the manual that the USB cable can make quite a significant impact on the sound because for whatever reason it's remarkably sensitive to timing or noise!? Maybe list a few "optimal" cables to purchase? Perhaps they should then have included a USB cable with the package to ensure that end-users are not ending up with inferior sound. Who knows, if this is true, then different cables might have even more effect - +/-3dB? +/-6dB with 15' cables anyone? Kinda sucks to purchase a Kii system if this is true. [Which I highly doubt.] Thanks Archimago: On the contrary, Kii are pretty laissez-faire about the influence of cables and quite rightly so. After all everything is in the digital domain, no analogue interfaces (except some internal ones to the speakers). I don't know if it is the cable length that is making a difference, it's just that those are the two cable lengths I have. Of course, the volume change is academic except that I have been careful to ensure that the perceived improvement in SQ is not down to volume change. That is something I was a keen to correct before I did the extended listening around. I have to say the Kii's are stunning and I have nothing but praise for them....everything I do to my system just seems to bring out more and more musicality and resolution out of them. Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 14 minutes ago, Archimago said: Mazza, If this is true that an AQ Diamond is able to cause a 2dB volume difference over the USB digital interface (I assume this is to your Kii THREE system), doesn't this speak poorly of the Kii's digital design? If this is true, does the company then warn people in the manual that the USB cable can make quite a significant impact on the sound because for whatever reason it's remarkably sensitive to timing or noise!? Maybe list a few "optimal" cables to purchase? Perhaps they should then have included a USB cable with the package to ensure that end-users are not ending up with inferior sound. Who knows, if this is true, then different cables might have even more effect - +/-3dB? +/-6dB with 15' cables anyone? Kinda sucks to purchase a Kii system if this is true. [Which I highly doubt.] 4 minutes ago, Mazza said: Yes, but it's puzzling as to what it could be, certainly it is not bumping the volume control, because I am measuring the volume of the sound using a Behringer mic. My ref isn't just some notches on a volume dial. The usual physical layer explanations (i.e "timing", "noise", etc.) in no way account how a digital communication signal such as USB could be effected in just such a way to lead to an exact 2db increase. I have not explanation of your UFO experience Mazza. The most likely is that you are an astroturfer here to give yet another Audiophile cable tent testimonial. In other words, you are lying. OR perhaps your an oddball who likes throwing the forums into a frenzy. OR perhaps you are experiencing something and wrongly focusing on the cable change (missing the real cause entirely). Perhaps someone with USB physical layer experience will come along and explain how some endpoints are designed with a built in volume adjustment (which would be a DSP/digital layer adjustment) depending on some signal variation that could be the result of cable length (the OP is mentioning a 3M to 1.5 M reduction) or some other factor such as using weirdly specd "audiophile" USB cables from AudioQuest or any other such manufacturer... gmgraves, Ralf11, JimCo06 and 1 other 1 1 2 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, Mazza said: I have to say the Kii's are stunning and I have nothing but praise for them....everything I do to my system just seems to bring out more and more musicality and resolution out of them. Well, there is your explanation. In the audiophile art of system tweaking, everything leads to more "musicality", more "resolution", more (where is Ralf Arnott when you need him). What are you selling? Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, crenca said: I have not explanation of your UFO experience Mazza. The most likely is that you are an astroturfer here to give yet another Audiophile cable tent testimonial. In other words, you are lying. OR perhaps your an oddball who likes throwing the forums into a frenzy. OR perhaps you are experiencing something and wrongly focusing on the cable change (missing the real cause entirely). Thanks for the supportive words. I am not trying to push any cable agenda, in fact if you go back to my OP I deliberately didn't mention cable or equipment so to avoid any fanboy accusations. There is merely a phenomena which I don't understand which I put to the forum to ask if anyone knows better. I can hardly imagine the forums are going to get into a frenzy over this small matter!!!!! But thank for your contribution Teresa and serendipitydawg 2 Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Popular Post Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, crenca said: Well, there is your explanation. In the audiophile art of system tweaking, everything leads to more "musicality", more "resolution", more (where is Ralf Arnott when you need him). What are you selling? Here we go, the insults start. I am not selling anything, I merely asked if anyone knows why I got an odd result sandyk, Duke40, PeterSt and 4 others 7 Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Mazza said: Thanks for the supportive words. I am not trying to push any cable agenda, in fact if you go back to my OP I deliberately didn't mention cable or equipment so to avoid any fanboy accusations. There is merely a phenomena which I don't understand which I put to the forum to ask if anyone knows better. I can hardly imagine the forums are going to get into a frenzy over this small matter!!!!! But thank for your contribution Your welcome, but I and many others (certainly those who lean to the real and "objective") are not here to "support" you. It is not about therapy, but the truth. In the end, if folks are to be helped the truth must be involved. I don't see the truth in your experience or in your post. I could be wrong, and will admit it if I am, but I suspect this cable testimonial thread will end up just like the rest of them... JimCo06, Duke40, sandyk and 6 others 1 8 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mazza said: Here we go, the insults start. I am not selling anything, I merely asked if anyone knows why I got an odd result If it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, and poops like a duck, it probably is a duck. Of course, you already knew this. If you experience is real and has a realistic explanation that is really related to USB/digital communication (the 1's and 0's of your titillating subject line), then I will offer a mea culpa, not for insulting you (which is a red herring on your part) but for doubting your experience. Until then, it's a UFO sighting... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted December 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 44 minutes ago, crenca said: Perhaps someone with USB physical layer experience will come along and explain how some endpoints are designed with a built in volume adjustment (which would be a DSP/digital layer adjustment) depending on some signal variation that could be the result of cable length (the OP is mentioning a 3M to 1.5 M reduction) or some other factor such as using weirdly specd "audiophile" USB cables from AudioQuest or any other such manufacturer... I can think of one vaguely plausible explanation along those lines. Suppose the long cable is so poor that it drops down to USB 1.1 full speed while the short one manages to support USB 2.0 high speed. As a result, different OS drivers might get used, or the DAC might be otherwise differently identified. This in turn could lead to different saved volume settings being applied. A lot of ifs and mights, but it's not entirely impossible. crenca, Ralf11, Confused and 3 others 3 3 Link to comment
crenca Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 minute ago, mansr said: I can think of one vaguely plausible explanation along those lines. Suppose the long cable is so poor that it drops down to USB 1.1 full speed while the short one manages to support USB 2.0 high speed. As a result, different OS drivers might get used, or the DAC might be otherwise differently identified. This in turn could lead to different saved volume settings being applied. A lot of ifs and mights, but it's not entirely impossible. Yes, the OS (of either end) switching drivers...The OP mentions a "server" - does he have (if user configurable) a "bit perfect" (turning off all OS DSP processing) on said server, and is it really ever truly defeatable...but like you say possible but many ifs Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, crenca said: Until then, it's a UFO sighting... Yep, maybe you are right. Odd that I can make this UFO re-appear again and again with these two cables. Just don't know why. ?? crenca, JimCo06 and Teresa 1 1 1 Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 Thanks @mansr and @crenca .... you might have something there, the OS on the transmitter end and on the receiver ends are just a 'black box' with no user configurability, but the Kii's do a lot of DSP, so maybe that is where it is? Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
Archimago Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 19 minutes ago, Mazza said: Yep, maybe you are right. Odd that I can make this UFO re-appear again and again with these two cables. Just don't know why. ?? As the others have noted, this is indeed an odd "UFO" type of observation. Given that you're not hearing data corruption (which would be obvious), in order for digital data to sound simply softer, it would require some kind of detection of the different cables and manipulation to the data or the device settings to result in amplitude reduction. While a 2dB reduction is not a big deal when we're listening to modern hi-res devices with plenty of resolution, it does still imply something has changed which presumably should not. And since the playback "system" includes the DAC which you're connecting and in this case your active speakers, you need to look at what's going on there rather than focus on the cable itself. Time to ask Kii why this is happening. Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted December 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2018 I am as puzzled as anyone else (perhaps more so, lacking technical background) regarding the loudness change. But regarding the perceived increase in sound quality, my speculation would be that it's directly due to the volume change. It's a well known effect that louder sounds better, and though you may think you can somehow mitigate the subjective SQ improvement by some mental feat like intense concentration, it really isn't so. That's just how our ear-brain system is wired. gmgraves and Ralf11 1 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
firedog Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Archimago said: Mazza, If this is true that an AQ Diamond is able to cause a 2dB volume difference over the USB digital interface (I assume this is to your Kii THREE system), doesn't this speak poorly of the Kii's digital design? If this is true, does the company then warn people in the manual that the USB cable can make quite a significant impact on the sound because for whatever reason it's remarkably sensitive to timing or noise!? Maybe list a few "optimal" cables to purchase? Perhaps they should then have included a USB cable with the package to ensure that end-users are not ending up with inferior sound. Who knows, if this is true, then different cables might have even more effect - +/-3dB? +/-6dB with 15' cables anyone? Kinda sucks to purchase a Kii system if this is true. [Which I highly doubt.] Haven't experienced anything like that with my Kiis. They seem to be pretty oblivious to tweaks. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Mazza Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Archimago said: While a 2dB reduction is not a big deal when we're listening to modern hi-res devices with plenty of resolution, it does still imply something has changed which presumably should not. And since the playback "system" includes the DAC which you're connecting and in this case your active speakers, you need to look at what's going on there rather than focus on the cable itself. Time to ask Kii why this is happening. You are absolutely right. Per se, I don’t really give a hoot the vol change other than it surprised mand the volume thing has peaked my curiosity. I think your point and the same by mansa and Franca, that it is more likely to be something with the Kii’s is a more likely explanation than cable properties. Aurender W20 Music Server, Kii Three Active Speakers, Kii Digital Controller Audioquest Diamond USB, Audioquest Niagara 7000 conditioner, Audioquest NRG-1000 HC mains leads Link to comment
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