Two simultaneous sound outputs in different formats

[cochinada]

Greetings!

 

I have an HTPC running Windows 10 Professional with lossless music stored and I want to activate two different sound outputs simultaneously in a 'bit perfect' way:

- one is via USB for an external DAC.

- the other is via HDMI for my AV processor.

 

The idea is to use JRiver Media Center for playing my CD's and SACD's.

For playing CD's I would use only the external DAC (no need to even turn on the AV processor).

For playing SACD's in multi channel I would like to use still the DAC for the front channels but my AV processor for the remaining channels.

 

For this thing to work I would need first to be able to activate both outputs at the same time without echos or any kind of artifacts/distortions.

Then I would need to configure the USB DAC for stereo and finally the AV processor via HDMI in 5.1.

 

I've learned that Voicemeter could handle the first part of the job but it is not 'bit perfect'...

I don't know if HIFI-Cable and ASIO Bridge would suite my purposes. The only thing I know is that this is 'bit perfect'.

 

Any help would be highly appreciated!

[Kal Rubinson]

5 hours ago, cochinada said:

For playing SACD's in multi channel I would like to use still the DAC for the front channels but my AV processor for the remaining channels.

It will be hard to synchronize these two very different signal paths.

[mansr]

10 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

It will be hard to synchronize these two very different signal paths.

Even if you manage to compensate for the differing latencies, you'll still have clock drift.

[Kal Rubinson]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

Even if you manage to compensate for the differing latencies, you'll still have clock drift.

I was referring to both issues.

[Miska]

Maybe best option to get it possibly working would be to use S/PDIF from AV processor to the DAC. If the AV processor has capability to pass through the front channels to S/PDIF output in first place. This way DAC is slaved to the AV processor's clock.

 

For HDMI's DRM reasons such option may not be available though.

[cochinada]

Thank you all for your suggestions and eyeopeners. ?

 

In fact this turned out to be much more tricky than I've though and I'm about to give up the idea because I don't want to compromise the listening of 2 channel music just for the sake of a handful of SACD's I have. Just for curiosity does anyone of you ever listens to SACD's in multichannel?

 

@Miska,

Actually I think it is also not possible to do that. maybe for the reasons you wrote.

I found this written in my Anthem Avm50v 3D manual:

 

"Digital Rec-Out can provide a signal to the digital audio input of a Mini Disc recorder, CD recorder etc, from any source set to Digital (except HDMI) or Anlg-DSP"

 

and...

 

"Why am I not getting sound in ZONE2, ZONE3, or RECORD?

...For example, if a source is connected via HDMI, there won't be output in ZONE2 unless you make additional connections from the source to the processor - analog L/R for audio..."

 

So, it looks consistent that there is no way to be able to replicate/copy the audio received via an HDMI input.

[Kal Rubinson]

3 hours ago, cochinada said:

Just for curiosity does anyone of you ever listens to SACD's in multichannel?

All the time.

And,  yes, JRiver can output S/PDIF, USB and HDMI simultaneously.  The trick is that, even with its Zone Synch function, there is no way to insure that the individual output devices will maintain synch adequately,

[STC]

You can manually sync the timing and the result can be good. For multichannel music, unless object based channel, a few ms difference if any would make much difference. 

 

Here is a video of sound from 10 different DACs captured using CS10EM microphone. 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

And,  yes, JRiver can output S/PDIF, USB and HDMI simultaneously.  The trick is that, even with its Zone Synch function, there is no way to insure that the individual output devices will maintain synch adequately,

 

S/PDIF is clocked by sender, but nowadays USB and and HDMI are asynchronous. HDMI being the last one to jump on asynchronous train and probably still there are lot of device pairs not supporting that.

 

Less likely problematic combination is S/PDIF + HDMI, but one would need to be very careful to select computer hardware that runs both from the same master clock. That is most likely the case when both are integrated to the same SoC which is the case for some small computers based on Intel or ARM CPU architecture. For example CuBox-i probably runs HDMI and optical S/PDIF output from the same clock.

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, STC said:

You can manually sync the timing and the result can be good. For multichannel music, unless object based channel, a few ms difference if any would make much difference. 

 

Few milliseconds is enough to screw up the advantage of multichannel by messing the phase information between channels. They don't necessarily run badly out of drum beat cycle, but the sound location information that is just fairly small phase difference doesn't take much to destroy.

 

[STC]

8 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Few milliseconds is enough to screw up the advantage of multichannel by messing the phase information between channels. They don't necessarily run badly out of drum beat cycle, but the sound location information that is just fairly small phase difference doesn't take much to destroy.

 

 

Location difference is within microseconds domain. I have been using different DACs. They often go out of sync unless I load one track and do not make  changes during the playback they remain in sync as you can see from the many recordings I made. It is not crucial even measurements can show that they could be out of sync.  More here https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,114142.msg789015.html#msg789015

[Miska]

10 hours ago, STC said:

Location difference is within microseconds domain. I have been using different DACs. They often go out of sync unless I load one track and do not make  changes during the playback they remain in sync as you can see from the many recordings I made. It is not crucial even measurements can show that they could be out of sync.  More here https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,114142.msg789015.html#msg789015

 

Depends on what you are using it for. If you just want multi-room playback then it is not a problem of course. If you want multichannel playback then it is a problem (unless you don't care about to localization part).

 

In itself, getting for example 192 channels of synchronized playback is not a problem at all in itself. You could do that for example using single RME MADIface XT and stack of M-32 Pro converters. Or you could do synchronized multiroom-multichannel using suitable number of Merging Hapi's. Or alternatively bunch of Focusrite Red 16Line's.

 

Hapi allows you to use either D/A cards, or alternatively the base board 8x AES or 2x S/PDIF outputs. So at max you can do 16 channels of DSD256 playback per unit with suitable number of units synchronized on the local network.

 

So yes, there are many options if you are ready to go for pro-audio gear. At least for the interfacing part (you could still use consumer DACs through AES or S/PDIF).

 

I personally have Motu 8D that can be used on network for synchronized AES and S/PDIF I/O. But they also have bigger units like 112D, but I personally don't need so many channels per unit.

 

[STC]

21 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Depends on what you are using it for. If you just want multi-room playback then it is not a problem of course. If you want multichannel playback then it is a problem (unless you don't care about to localization part).

 

In itself, getting for example 192 channels of synchronized playback is not a problem at all in itself. You could do that for example using single RME MADIface XT and stack of M-32 Pro converters. Or you could do synchronized multiroom-multichannel using suitable number of Merging Hapi's. Or alternatively bunch of Focusrite Red 16Line's.

 

Hapi allows you to use either D/A cards, or alternatively the base board 8x AES or 2x S/PDIF outputs. So at max you can do 16 channels of DSD256 playback per unit with suitable number of units synchronized on the local network.

 

So yes, there are many options if you are ready to go for pro-audio gear. At least for the interfacing part (you could still use consumer DACs through AES or S/PDIF).

 

I personally have Motu 8D that can be used on network for synchronized AES and S/PDIF I/O. But they also have bigger units like 112D, but I personally don't need so many channels per unit.

 

 

I thought I made it clear in my post and video. I have done it for years including for MCH replay. Of course with multidac such as Motu you are on the technically correct side.  

[Miska]

22 minutes ago, STC said:

I thought I made it clear in my post and video. I have done it for years including for MCH replay. Of course with multidac such as Motu you are on the technically correct side.  

 

Yeah, me too. I just didn't quite get what does the recording and JRiver have to do with playing multiple channels in sync?

[cochinada]

Thank you guys for all your inputs but please don't get into a dispute because of me.

I have no pro gear and am only interested to make use of my very humble and simple equipment for listening to multichannel with JRiver.

That's all.?

[STC]

34 minutes ago, cochinada said:

Thank you guys for all your inputs but please don't get into a dispute because of me.

I have no pro gear and am only interested to make use of my very humble and simple equipment for listening to multichannel with JRiver.

That's all.?

 

I was referring to JRiver setup for multicahnnel. You can try using the zone setting. However the sync will not work accurately for your purpose if you are using MC24. They made some changes to it and ot is is no longer workable. The workable version that I used were 18 to 23. 

[cochinada]

Thanks a lot. I'm using MC22. I never used this zone but I'll find out how it works and will give it a try for sure.