Is Digital Audio A Mature Science?

[Ralf11]

9 hours ago, marce said:

But it is analogue you are listening to... You don't listen to digital you listen to analogue... IT HAS BEEN CONVERTED TO ANALOGUE.

 

what about the "digital" nature of neuronal firing frequency???

[Ralf11]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It's all fund stuff.

 

Indeed it is!  The easy way is to go with a low expenses one that mimics the S&P...

[esldude]

8 hours ago, marce said:

Because it is a superior format... LOL

I use 8 track tape these days and when I can afford I will be up-grading to wax cylinders.

You are taking the correct approach in that the original tech is better than later tech.  You can stop off at 78's before going to wax cylinders however.  Shellac is where its at!

[fas42]

Where science and digital audio can make great strides, in the future, is in unmixing of recordings, audio source separation - take apart a mastering, and reassemble to suit the listener, and environment. Very active,

 

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ib9ODwAAQBAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

 

[Rexp]

21 hours ago, Rexp said:

Agree the source material is key, please provide examples of CD's that sound great and what is your CD player? 

Many thanks

Anything you can share @KeenObserver? 

[20hertz]

16 hours ago, marce said:

But it is analogue you are listening to... You don't listen to digital you listen to analogue... IT HAS BEEN CONVERTED TO ANALOGUE.

Really....(sigh) you think I didnt know that?

CONVERTED,     yes.

[20hertz]

Also, as a response to all the other nonconstructive comments re: vinyl.

All my design work is run thru a pair of carefully calibrated Genelec 8260s using DSP.

DSP is very good at improving speaker and room issues but it does not alter the quality of the source material.

The vinyl rig still kills it more than 50 percent of the time.

Personally I want digital to be better, I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of vinyl at home, and I have over ten TB of digital files.

But is still sounds lean and 2D to my ears.

DSP also has its price. NOTHING comes close to an analogue only system with pure class a amps directly connected to a driver.

 

[Ralf11]

lean and 2D sounds like you prefer some warmth - do you have any tubes, etc. in your digital system?

 

you can add vinyl sound to digital BTW

[Allan F]

On 12/9/2018 at 12:00 AM, pkane2001 said:

Right. So if all conclusions are subject to expectation bias, maybe you should give measurements a little more credit, since they are not? 

 

Measurements may not be subject to expectation bias, but the expectation that measurements will correspond to sound quality often does not accord with reality.

[esldude]

2 hours ago, Rexp said:

Anything you can share @KeenObserver? 

Most of your early Chesky CD's were very good.  Recorded in a purist manner and no processing.  

 

For something more popular in a studio produced CD the original release of Dire Strait's Love over Gold is very good. 

 

Not an early CD, but I've thought Buddy Guy's Feels like rain is a well recorded CD.  

 

The Wilson Audio CD's which are once again available in some higher rez formats are also very good. 

 

 

[esldude]

5 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

Measurements may not be subject to expectation bias, but the expectation that measurements will correspond to sound quality often does not accord with reality.

Measured sound quality or perceived sound quality?

Most people by far prefer some compression on recordings.  Not necessarily a huge amount, but some amount will usually have people thinking the sound quality is improved with some compression.  The accuracy is worse, the perception is an improvement.  A simple illustration of the issues there. 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Most people by far prefer some compression on recordings.  Not necessarily a huge amount, but some amount will usually have people thinking the sound quality is improved with some compression.

 

 Compression normally results in the degradation of any low level ambience.

[marce]

1 hour ago, 20hertz said:

Also, as a response to all the other nonconstructive comments re: vinyl.

All my design work is run thru a pair of carefully calibrated Genelec 8260s using DSP.

DSP is very good at improving speaker and room issues but it does not alter the quality of the source material.

The vinyl rig still kills it more than 50 percent of the time.

Personally I want digital to be better, I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of vinyl at home, and I have over ten TB of digital files.

But is still sounds lean and 2D to my ears.

DSP also has its price. NOTHING comes close to an analogue only system with pure class a amps directly connected to a driver.

 

So you convert the analogue to digital to pass through the DSP I presume, yet even though its been through a digital conversion its still better than the other anaolgue that has been through a digital conversion.... Never mind of course that most stuff is digitally recorded anyway these days...

No bias working here then...

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, Allan F said:

 the expectation that measurements will correspond to sound quality often does not accord with reality.

 

And you arrived at this conclusion using a bias controlled method perhaps?

[20hertz]

56 minutes ago, marce said:

So you convert the analogue to digital to pass through the DSP I presume, yet even though its been through a digital conversion its still better than the other anaolgue that has been through a digital conversion.... Never mind of course that most stuff is digitally recorded anyway these days...

No bias working here then...

Correct. Turntable goes thru ADC and DSP as does any digital source we have set up as well.

We then have have trained industry listeners from outside come to listen to tell us if our design work is heading in the right direction.

The listeners have absolutely no idea what source or changes have been made since the last time they visited.

Often the result of our work is entirely unexpected, improvements come where least expected.

Also what I expected to be a great leap forward (bias) was not so great at all and ended up in the bin.

The DSP cleans up the playback of any source, however I still believe it comes at a sonic cost of its own.

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, esldude said:

For something more popular in a studio produced CD the original release of Dire Strait's Love over Gold is very good. 

 

VERTIGO 800 088-2  Made in W.Germany is the original and best !

[esldude]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Compression normally results in the degradation of any low level ambience.

Depends.  It often sounds like there is more low level ambiance if just the right amount of compression is applied and the recording has some to start with.  

[mansr]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

Where science and digital audio can make great strides, in the future, is in unmixing of recordings, audio source separation - take apart a mastering, and reassemble to suit the listener, and environment.

http://jordipons.me/apps/end-to-end-music-source-separation/

[marce]

4 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

And you arrived at this conclusion using a bias controlled method perhaps?

No teachings from higher audiophiles, the same that diss science and physics?

[Allan F]

8 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

And you arrived at this conclusion using a bias controlled method perhaps?

 

The fact method.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Allan F said:

The fact method.

You dropped the word "alternative."

[Allan F]

16 minutes ago, mansr said:

You dropped the word "alternative."

 

No, you superciliously added it. The fact is well known by many acclaimed audio equipment designers who use measurements as valuable tools, but fine tune and finalize their designs by listening.

[pkane2001]

11 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

The fact method.

 

That was addressed by the study I shared. More than 75% of listeners heard a different performance while the same exact one was played, all based on expectation/confirmation bias. Fact?

 

[Allan F]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

That was addressed by the study I shared. More than 75% of listeners heard a different performance while the same exact one was played, all based on expectation/confirmation bias. Fact?

 

The study is irrelevant to the fact I posted.

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, Allan F said:

The study is irrelevant to the fact I posted.

 

Facts need to be checked. Otherwise they may wind up as 'alternative'.