Article: Why Can't Music Artists Do This?

[The Computer Audiophile]

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[audiobomber]

Neil Young has repeatedly spoken out for good sound over the years. https://www.cnet.com/news/neil-young-savages-apple-over-audio-quality/

 

PS Tom Cruise is not a real actor, he just plays Tom Cruise in every movie.

[ted_b]

Agree that the ridiculous soap opera effect is an epidemic in the flatscreen tv world (my sister's new tv had it and we spent quite a bit of time finding the damn toggle setting).  And agree that Neil is a unique spokesperson for high quality audio...we need more of them. 

 

While I'm no fan of Tom Cruise's life choices, his acting is usually quite good!  Hell, he played Jack Reacher (6'5" large blond character in the books) and made it work ok.    And one of my fave movies of 2014 was his Edge of Tomorrow, a guilty pleasure sci-fi piece of great movie entertainment.

 

Back on subject, the issue with audio optimization is that it is not a simple setting or toggle switch (as the hundreds of thousands of CA posts prove out).

[esldude]

I've seen a few new flat screen TV s being immediately horrified by the soap opera effect.   Found and turned it off. In the three cases so far they looked at it and wanted me to put it back like it was. The last being my cousin's new tv over Thanksgiving. 

[loop7]

I've disabled motion smoothing on panels owned by friends and family. 

 

I could never believe the feature was enabled by default and don't understand how anyone could watch a panel with it enabled. 

 

It also drives me crazy when panels are set to vivid or some other overly cranked mode.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

I've seen a few new flat screen TV s being immediately horrified by the soap opera effect.   Found and turned it off. In the three cases so far they looked at it and wanted me to put it back like it was. The last being my cousin's new tv over Thanksgiving. 

You're not supposed to tell them that you've changed anything.

[iansen]

Interestingly, we had a conversation similar to this on ComputerAudiophile back in 2008.

 

 

The conversation was swiftly (and somewhat ruthlessly) gunned down by various technical replies - perhaps because I erronously referred to "upscaling" and its effects, when I should have perhaps referred to interpolation software and its effects.

 

But the basic consideration of that 2008 post remains valid: the effect of predictive algorhythms "filling in" information which isn't actually there...

 

 

 

 

[danadam]

1 hour ago, iansen said:

But the basic consideration of that 2008 post remains valid: the effect of predictive algorhythms "filling in" information which isn't actually there...

Er... but soap opera effect exists also for genuine 60 fps recordings (I presume), so how is this the "filling in" algorithm fault?

[iansen]

There's a nice interview with electronic artist Robert Henke aka Monolake about having no compression on his album "Silence".  OK, he's not exactly the type of massive artist (outside of the rareified confines of minimal techno) whom Chris wishes would step forwards

 

http://www.carosnatch.com/2010/02/monolake-interview-producing-an-album-with-no-compression/

 

But in another interview, he actually says

"I'm not willing to take part in that race for loudness anymore, because it is so damn redundant at the end of the day. Each amplifier has a volume knob."

 

http://www.monolake.de/interviews/mastering.html

 

[Don Hills]

9 hours ago, iansen said:

But the basic consideration of that 2008 post remains valid: the effect of predictive algorhythms "filling in" information which isn't actually there...

 

Done properly, the information is actually there. There's a close analogy in audio: the NOS filterless DAC. There are claims that, like 24 fps video, this is closer to the original source. But consider this:

Start with the original analog signal. The ADC samples it at regular intervals. Between those intervals, the analog signal continues to vary. The DAC converter stage then has to accurately reproduce the sample values at the same regular intervals in time. Competent DACs can do that, even filterless. The difference is in what happens in between the sample intervals. A filterless DAC outputs the same value for a whole sample period. A properly filtered DAC produces values in between the sample periods that accurately match the original analog values that existed between the samples.

 

 

 

 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Don Hills said:

 

Done properly, the information is actually there. There's a close analogy in audio: the NOS filterless DAC. There are claims that, like 24 fps video, this is closer to the original source. But consider this:

Start with the original analog signal. The ADC samples it at regular intervals. Between those intervals, the analog signal continues to vary. The DAC converter stage then has to accurately reproduce the sample values at the same regular intervals in time. Competent DACs can do that, even filterless. The difference is in what happens in between the sample intervals. A filterless DAC outputs the same value for a whole sample period. A properly filtered DAC produces values in between the sample periods that accurately match the original analog values that existed between the samples.

 

 

 

 

NOS DACs:

 

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/11/nos-vs-digital-filtering-dacs-exploring.html

[Danny Kaey]

I think it was during last year’s talk at RMAF that I posited the very same question. When I saw this, I immediately thought of Nolan and his discussions around color calibration, and how he insists that you really need to pay attention to your home setup so you can best enjoy his films. We simply have nothing on the audio / music / HiFi side of the business. Sorry, Neil Young is not a trendsetter anymore even as I appreciate his enthusiasm. 

[Axial]

This is good, thank you for posting it @ computer audiofile. 

Because films matter. Motion picture visuals and soundtracks matter. 

Live music matters, life matters. 

 

Tom Cruise is a versatile actor...'Collateral' from Michael Mann.

He was also in films directed by Stanley Kubrick, Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, Brian De Palma, 

[Axial]

This is good, thank you for posting it @ computer audiofile. 

Because films matter. Motion picture visuals and soundtracks matter. 

Live music matters, life matters. 

 

Tom Cruise is a versatile actor...'Collateral' from Michael Mann.

He was also in films directed by Stanley Kubrick, Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, Ridley Scott, Oliver Stone, Brian De Palma, Francis Ford Coppola, Tony Scott, Cameron Crowe, Edward Zwick, Joseph Kosinski, Doug Liman, Ron Howard, Christopher McQuarrie, J. J. abrams, John Woo, Paul Thomas Anderson, Paul Brickman, James Mangold, Barry Levinson, Rob Reiner, Neil Jordan, Michael Chapman, ...

...Not a bad grouping of film directors, not bad @ all.

 

He was also married to Nicole Kidman. ...And ...

 

Yeah, check 'Collateral' again (Blu-ray), that scene in the jazz cabaret with the Trumpetist (told a story about Miles Davis). ...Or the scene in the disco club with the music of Groove Armada. Also featuring the music from Audioslave, Miles Davis, Antonio Pinto, Johann Sebastian Bach, Paul Oakenfold, Calexico, James Newton Howard, ...

 

Check the soundtrack in 'Live - Die - Repeat / Edge of Tomorrow', and in 'Oblivion', and in Mission: Impossible - Fallout ... Blu-ray 4K. 

 

Tom Cruise is an audiofile and a videofile, because sound/music and moving pictures matter. He looks half his age and acts like it...stuntman. 

 

He rode motorcycles since age 10, and was riding bikes in @ least ten films. 

 

Tom Cruise is an accomplish actor, film producer, film executive, ...very. 

He also tweets on Twitter. 

 

P.S. Not enough time for editing.

Too many movies, too many music recordings not enough time. 

[Guest QAwdeermteyiouion]

Hello everyone! This is my first post ?

 

Perhaps the so called soap opera effect is more about what we are used to. Our brain may be so adapted to watching moving 2D content on still frames presented one every twenty fourth of a second, that moving to a more natural presentation feels initially "wrong". Many also used to feel strongly, that photography and movies lost something when film grain went away. Some photographers and film makers even added (and some still add) grain digitally to their work. I think most people are not missing the  grain, though. It may be easier for younger people who are more used to watch video content to adapt to new "fluid" movies, and they may even wonder what exactly is the problem Cruise and Mcquarrie are talking about.

 

Ademeion

[Axial]

 

 

 

[Guest QAwdeermteyiouion]

Thanks Axial, that was interesting.

 

It seems that people are talking about about two different things when they talk about the "soap opera effect". One is motion interpolation and it's side effects, and the other is (genuinely) high frame rates and the look they create for the video content. Many seem to fail to make the distinction between these two.

[Axial]

One is interpolation from the video processor in our TVs (what Tom is talking about here; motion smoothing by adding frames that don't exist), and the other the actual thing...like 'Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk' on 4K HDR Blu-ray...60fps. 

 

And, not all TVs are created equal...same with audiophile computer components. 

The implementation is key, the content material the essence, and the computing power effect on the eyes is the reference of our preference, not the film director one. But the film director doesn't know all TVs, his opinion along with Tom is general. And in general they sure are correct, 99%

 

Best to turn off the Smooth Motion effect in our TVs. ...100%

 

* I watched 'Roma' on Netflix last night...superb film, maestro grandioso! 

Everything; camera movements, storytelling fluidity, majestic film audio soundtrack. 

Very very highly recommended. 

 

 

[Feren]

How about Tom Cruise and others in Hollywood recognise demand for higher frame rate cinema and cater - panning shots are so erratic they belong in last age of cinema. By they way, reality is a soap opera.

[Axial]

HDMI version 2.1 (2019) supports higher frame rate ... 120 fps.

The Hobbit was presented in some theaters @ 48 fps.

Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk was shot @ 120 fps and delivered on 4K Blu-ray @ 60 fps. It is very polished, pristine picture, super realistic, disorienting, time is a must to get fully acquainted with good comfort level. 

 

It is not easy to get used to high frame rates; the soap opera takes effect.

But motion blur disappears (very good).

 

Now, the soap opera effect button on our menu picture settings from our TVs:

■□ https://myromamovie.com/best-viewing-practices

□■ https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2018/12/28/why-tom-cruise-and-netflix-arent-completely-right-about-tv-motion-processing/amp/?amp_js_v=0.1

 

There are two sides on each coin; the pro and the con. Each side has its own pros and cons. Where the coin falls, and what Tom Cruise proposes are most valid from the eyes of the viewer (each one of us). What is generally perceived as good practice is not necessarily a bad theory, vice versa. 

What is best? It depends. It is you the viewer with your eyes, your brand of TV, the content you play, your comfort level of fulfillment towards your own pursuit of happiness. I prefer white because it is immaculate (soap without blur). 

But pure black is addicting and there is nothing wrong in being an addict of film's intended motion without soap by film directors. 

 

I enjoy Billy Lynn in 4K @ 60 fps (immaculate pristine images in motion...soapy and blur-free). I also enjoy it in 3D @ 24 fps without motion interpolation engaged.

I enjoy Black Panther in 4K and in 3D  @ 24 fps with Motion Interpolation turned off (pure blacks with CGI effects with some degree of blur. 

 

What is your own  pleasure? 

 _____

 

* Suggestions:

1. Extended Edit Time (posts): say one week. It's a forum not The New York Post. 

2. No moderators because they always end up imposing their own bias and personal judgement: bad for an intelligent civilisation of advanced players. Best for free speech and the exploration of new discoveries. Best for renew developments @ the service of arts & science.