Massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming?

[PeterSt]

5 hours ago, Jud said:

But Jesus' noise measurements seem to indicate I should expect more noise with that setup unless I buy a much better power supply,

 

Hi Jud - Do you have a link to this, please ?

Or if this is about measuring noise of a power supply then don't bother (nothing much for me to understand or not understand in that case).

[Jud]

21 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Hi Jud - Do you have a link to this, please ?

Or if this is about measuring noise of a power supply then don't bother (nothing much for me to understand or not understand in that case).

 

It was someone else's link to a post by Jesus, where he talked about measuring noise of a microRendu streaming setup vs. noise of a NUC streaming setup, using various power supplies. 

 

IIRC, he said:

 

- Measured noise with SMPS (iFi) on both was 3dB less with microRendu, whether or not both power supplies were grounded (I assume in the way John Swenson has recommended and that UpTone uses for their inexpensive power supply). 

 

- The situation in which the measured noise of both setups was equal is if Jesus used an unnamed $1000 linear power supply with both.

 

Assuming you still would be curious about it, I'll see if I can find it.

[asdf1000]

6 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

It was someone else's link to a post by Jesus, where he talked about measuring noise of a microRendu streaming setup vs. noise of a NUC streaming setup, using various power supplies. 

 

IIRC, he said:

 

- Measured noise with SMPS (iFi) on both was 3dB less with microRendu, whether or not both power supplies were grounded (I assume in the way John Swenson has recommended and that UpTone uses for their inexpensive power supply). 

 

- The situation in which the measured noise of both setups was equal is if Jesus used an unnamed $1000 linear power supply with both.

 

Assuming you still would be curious about it, I'll see if I can find it.

 

Corresponds with my subjective listening observstions too (NUC vs Rendu).

 

[Jud]

Here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35129-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-microrendu-ultrarendu/?page=26&tab=comments#comment-892358

[seeteeyou]

35 minutes ago, Jud said:

It was someone else's link to a post by Jesus, where he talked about measuring noise of a microRendu streaming setup vs. noise of a NUC streaming setup, using various power supplies. 

 

That's BS, he certainly wasn't testing a NUC since he didn't have access to one

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35129-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-microrendu-ultrarendu/?page=26&tab=comments#comment-892358

Quote

First, I don't have a NUC and I have no plans to buy one.

 

That's just yet another plain vanilla i5 so it's designed to fail. Larry also tested another x86 fanless mini PC that's "similar" to NUC but that couldn't even hold a candle, though there's obvious conflict of interest since he's selling NUC himself.

[asdf1000]

21 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

though there's obvious conflict of interest since he's selling NUC himself.

 

Possibly lots of shares in Intel too? ?. We'll never know but I've seen stranger things.

[lmitche]

39 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

That's BS, he certainly wasn't testing a NUC since he didn't have access to one

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35129-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-microrendu-ultrarendu/?page=26&tab=comments#comment-892358

 

That's just yet another plain vanilla i5 so it's designed to fail. Larry also tested another x86 fanless mini PC that's "similar" to NUC but that couldn't even hold a candle, though there's obvious conflict of interest since he's selling NUC himself.

 

20 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Possibly lots of shares in Intel too? ?. We'll never know but I've seen stranger things.

You guys are funny! I don't have any shares in Intel and doubt anything we do here will move the needle for them.

 

Anyway, I have shared everything I know about NUCs on these pages. If I find a better solution you can expect to hear about that as well, regardless of who the manufacturer is.

[asdf1000]

15 minutes ago, lmitche said:

 

You guys are funny! I don't have any shares in Intel and doubt anything we do here will move the needle for them.

 

Anyway, I have shared everything I know about NUCs on these pages. If I find a better solution you can expect to hear about that as well, regardless of who the manufacturer is.

 

Glad you saw the humour. I was worried I didn't include enough smiley faces.

 

I don't care if you do or don't have lots of shares in Intel - people can use their ears and report their findings, as has been happening. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see there are lots of fans at the moment, even if I tried it and compared with my ultraRendu and preferred the latter.

 

You clearly have a lot of happy customers.

 

There's no right or wrong in this fun hobby of ours. I enjoy reading the observations shared and moreso the discussions of potential technical mechanisms.

 

[Ralf11]

we don't have to disclose semi-cond holdings, do we?

[asdf1000]

It shouldn't be a complete shock/surprise if we learnt that Intel have paid attention to low noise on the NUC USB outputs, in comparison to connecting direct to a general PC/Mac's USB ports.

 

It wouldn't be a ground breaking first, among the big motherboard makers...

 

As Jussi has said many times in other threads, Gigabyte gaming motherboards feature the low noise "DAC-UP" USB ports.

 

MSI have "USB Audio Power Pro".

 

Asus have "TrueVolt USB"...

 

The obvious beauty is the NUC can be easily put in an Akasa fanless case though, for a reasonable overall cost.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

 

That's BS, he certainly wasn't testing a NUC since he didn't have access to one

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35129-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-microrendu-ultrarendu/?page=26&tab=comments#comment-892358

 

That's just yet another plain vanilla i5 so it's designed to fail. Larry also tested another x86 fanless mini PC that's "similar" to NUC but that couldn't even hold a candle, though there's obvious conflict of interest since he's selling NUC himself.

 

You're correct, sorry for the error.  I have another of those i5 small form factor machines ( https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856110131 ), so I suppose I am destined to fail as well.    Anyway, it's fun for me to play with.  It would be interesting to know if anyone has any knowledge vs. speculation regarding whether NUCs are indeed lower noise than other manufacturers' at least outwardly similar units.

 

I've been quite happy with the sound I've heard from Larry's stuff in the past.  I've not yet heard the NUC and Audiolinux setup.

 

(Edit: My unit is indeed an i5.  When it was in stock, upgrades, including to CPUs, were available.)

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35129-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-microrendu-ultrarendu/?page=26&tab=comments#comment-892358

 

Thank you Jud.

 

Quote

 

Round 3 test - (iFi grounded -> micro -> DAC) versus (SMPS grounded -> i5 -> DAC)

Round 3 results - the micro is better by several DB on one channel.

 

 

This alone would invalidate the testing for me. So if such a think happens in the context of the other tests/results (see your link) and I'd let it be like that, then I would doubt myself and consider another job.

While this is the most profound, the other tests also don't show consistency.

 

There is no single way one can compare like it was done with a PC at random. For example, take a battery fed laptop and you should be shocked. Not only for the difference, but also what a mess will show on the noise like - something which is not talked about in the first place. This, btw, tells me that it is a mess to begin with (uR). Bet ? Or that the analyzer is not a 24 bit one and all is messy to begin with because of that.

 

Anyway, now you know why I asked. Such things can not be in the first place and if they are one should check it's general grounding schemes. And I am not saying that it is easy to show all equal from two such different setups. But I would spend two days to make it equal instead of working towards what I'd like to see.

 

PS: This is not to debunk Jesus or anything. It merely is about the general consensus (in my mind) that these things ought not to matter to begin with. So "wrong testing".

 

[PeterSt]

30 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

It shouldn't be a complete shock/surprise if we learnt that Intel have paid attention to low noise on the NUC USB outputs

 

Similar thing. 

Low noise on USB outputs. Maybe someone can show that ?

 

And again, I am not saying that USB outputs are equal everywhere, and most certainly not Macs'. But show it is another matter.

[asdf1000]

5 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Similar thing. 

Low noise on USB outputs. Maybe someone can show that ?

 

And again, I am not saying that USB outputs are equal everywhere, and most certainly not Macs'. But show it is another matter.

 

Hi Peter

 

I'm saying Gigabyte, MSI, Asus how lowerER noise USB outputs on some of their motherboards. So if Intel decided to do the same (I would love to know too) then it wouldn't shock me, considering Gigabyte, Asus, MSI do this too.

 

Hopefully someone can show us eye pattern measurements or something, one day.

 

Having said that, in my own experience I found the NUC+AL option (as an 'endpoint') to sound better than a direct PC/Mac connection (stock USB ports) but not better than my Rendu + LPS-1.2.

 

I also found the Jussi recommended Up Board Gateway to sound exactly the same as the NUC+AL option - for significantly lower cost (it comes in a fanless case) and is happily powered by 5Vdc 900mA (very low power consumption):

 

https://up-shop.org/home/81-up-gws01w4g-memory32g-emmc-boardwo-vesa-plate.html

 

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

That's just yet another plain vanilla i5 so it's designed to fail.

 

And the NUC is not designed to fail ?

(I hear strange noises about Intel watching that thread and such. Now that's BS to me. I suppose there is some proof of that, but it would be the same as someone from Miscrosoft testing my playback software and next me thinking that MS will value what I do to the OS).

 

And oh, if anything, Intel would be watching that thread because there's finally a small audience for their "IoT" like devices (which don't (didn't !) sell at all). 

[asdf1000]

5 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

(I hear strange noises about Intel watching that thread and such

 

Larry said Jussi works for Intel, so that's the connection (I guess?):

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/54792-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=899530

 

I also know an Apple guy that watches that thread... Also a Boeing guy... and a Krispy Kremes guy... (true story...)

 

 

[PeterSt]

18 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

I'm saying Gigabyte, MSI, Asus how lowerER noise USB outputs on some of their motherboards.

 

Em, I am most certainly not claiming or saying or suggesting that all USB ports are the same and sound the same. The contrary !

My remark was only about someone saying that these and those ports SHOW less noise.

So show  me ? 

 

A year or so back over at Phasure we had a round of various people (including me) testing all the ports of one particular PC. They all sound different and we had consensus over it easily. And this is not "per USB hub" inside, but also from the same hub. Once you know what to look for inside, you can reason how PCB traces and of course internal wiring, will cause a USB port to "be" better (which again would be reasoning towards what you hear - just saying) which of course is about what sounds better. But no-one ever had the idea of measuring the noise from an USB port which is quite undoable to beging with (I'd need to make a special test(-wire) setup, like I did by now a year ago for my DAC and measuring USB cables, which of course still did not happen (if you don't know what I am talking about then never mind). So, I could use the same setup for testing USB ports. And then it is still about the how).

As if there would be something like a noise line for USB. It's data only and there will be no way to observe noise. Eye diagram and the eye opening maybe. But dozens of people will tell right away that this is not about noise but about other "anomalies".

So no, I don't see that all.

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Larry said Jussi works for Intel, so that's the connection (I guess?):

 

Haha, yes, I saw that passing by as well.

Intel shares drop a lot lately (but AMD too). So it doesn't work out ? (I think someone made a similar joke, but alas).

 

Let Jussi claim that he indeed does and for that reason. If he does I won't believe him. But I suggest he just stays quiet on the matter and let people believe.

[PeterSt]

8 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

I also know an Apple guy that watches that thread... Also a Boeing guy... and a Krispy Kremes guy... (true story...)

 

McDonalds shares do fine. And Coca Cola. And Tilray some times ...

[PeterSt]

Maybe it is a good idea that people with a Lush^2 or similar, think about what actually happens at changing the configurations. I mean, if we observe the drastically changing sound from, mind you, a cable which transports digital data, are people then still wondering about routings of traces and wires and longer vs shorter (like desktop vs NUC) ?

I know, my reasoning is a bit different from most, but I also suppose I am creating this stuff. I only don't have a thread for it. Haha.

And no Tilray shares.

[rickca]

I'm pretty sure whoever said Intel watches this forum was either joking or misinformed.  Miska certainly isn't watching on behalf of Intel.

[rickca]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

And no Tilray shares.

With enough Tilray product you won't worry about the performance of their stock.

[PeterSt]

5 minutes ago, rickca said:

With enough Tilray product you won't worry about the performance of their stock.

 

Or be without money because of having too much of that stock.

 

I think I know that you are into this stuff (LOL), so you should watch this in a few spare minutes. I don't know how it works, but it can really gain 100% in 10 minutes of time, and lose as much in the same time period. Someone must be smoking a loooot.

Anyway, today (your tomorrow) nothing much will be smoked. OK, Bush.

[asdf1000]

Shared in the other thread:

 

http://thelinearsolution.com/streamer.html

 

[rickca]

23 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

I think I know that you are into this stuff (LOL)

It's what got me into high sample rates.