Article: A New Listening Room Part One

[miguelito]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm going to leave the top / ceiling alone for now and see how it turns about. Vicoustic didn't recommend anything for this area.

If I had to guess, that would be the one place where I would be concerned. But I haven't seen it live obviously so maybe it is not an issue.

 

In a previous apartment, I had a high ceiling with beams. Certainly bigger beams than the ones you have but nonetheless. The net effect was multiple reflections that made up for a ginormous RT60. It was very hard to fix given the size of the beams. Fortunately I ended up moving to a spaceship.

 

I would consider horizontal drapes between beams. That would be fairly cheap to try I think.

[miguelito]

37 minutes ago, miguelito said:

If I had to guess, that would be the one place where I would be concerned. But I haven't seen it live obviously so maybe it is not an issue.

 

In a previous apartment, I had a high ceiling with beams. Certainly bigger beams than the ones you have but nonetheless. The net effect was multiple reflections that made up for a ginormous RT60. It was very hard to fix given the size of the beams. Fortunately I ended up moving to a spaceship.

 

I would consider horizontal drapes between beams. That would be fairly cheap to try I think.

The other thing I would consider is something around the staircase railing. I would say more cloth down the railing for a try (now you'll probably be inches away from becoming an old lady int he attic). 

 

Reason is: if you can make stuff behind you  more or less an infinite baffle, that would be a good thing, I think.

[ednaz]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Thanks for all the info. I'm with your Decorator in Chief :~)

 

I'm not a big fan of making a listening room look like a place one would never want to spend time. I'm working with Vicoustic on colors etc... to make things look good for a reasonable price.

 

Back to your original point about measuring differences between different options. I would love to do that and will plan to do that if it isn't too time consuming. But, it's such valuable information I think I have to do it and write about it. 

 

Do take a look at the photo print on acoustic panels options. Looks better than I expected by far. If you're an ambitious DIYer, you can find info on printing and then building your own acoustic panel. I'm not that ambitious. The places I found that did print covers had a library of (decent) art options for those who don't have their own work.

[monteverdi]

I see a mayor issue with room refections coming from the sides  and 45º ceiling focusing a lot of acoustic energy to the center of the room. I had a listening room with a vaulted roof with a radius equal to the apex of the room and focusing all sound to the centerline of the  floor and the acoustics were horrible. When I installed a suspended ceiling with a much greater radius the acoustics got pretty good. I guess one needs to disperse reflected sound and try to avoid focusing it to the listing area.

[Ralf11]

yup - time for some ray tracing, followed by a light shower of diffusers 

[The Computer Audiophile]

This kind of like HiFi in general. Some people are all-in on the objective / measurements method while other play it by ear. Within each group there are subgroups with different methods. 

 

For example, Vicoustic does this all day everyday. It’s in their financial interest to recommend more products to me. Yet, they didn’t recommend ceiling panels or anything on the back wall. 

 

In my position it’s hard to find a right way to sonic bliss. 

[rando]

Quote

My options for this listening room were a bit limited by of course cost but also because I wasn't willing to change anything about the rest of the house below this room. For example, I ask in the forum about using a rubber sound barrier under the carpet and before I knew it the recommendations were to rip up the ceiling below the room and put in a sand [sic] barrier etc...

 

@The Computer Audiophile  I applaud your efforts taking this project on with your own vision.  However, the proffering of solutions at an early stage would've been advanced by accurate depictions of the space on your part.   The purpose of your threads on new speakers and flooring was pooling ideas from the community.  Ideas brought forth were meant to not only be applicable to a high end listening room, but yours in particular. 

 

Quite conservatively, carpet was the least obvious issue faced when taking in the full scope of this project.  Being as this is Computer Audiophile, the lengthy depiction of turning your attic into a listening room rightly comprised the majority of this article.  There were numerous twists and turns that could have put a halt on this project.  Less visible physical obstacles which quickly lost the element of high tension once successfully completed.  Yet no less daunting than the long slow process and infinite calculations required to locate objects in a room.  I have faith you will meet all further challenges with equal aplomb.  My only hope is that you will be open to the experiences of others kindly relating personal mistakes and triumphs.  

[The Computer Audiophile]

22 minutes ago, rando said:

 

@The Computer Audiophile  I applaud your efforts taking this project on with your own vision.  However, the proffering of solutions at an early stage would've been advanced by accurate depictions of the space on your part.   The purpose of your threads on new speakers and flooring was pooling ideas from the community.  Ideas brought forth were meant to not only be applicable to a high end listening room, but yours in particular. 

 

Quite conservatively, carpet was the least obvious issue faced when taking in the full scope of this project.  Being as this is Computer Audiophile, the lengthy depiction of turning your attic into a listening room rightly comprised the majority of this article.  There were numerous twists and turns that could have put a halt on this project.  Less visible physical obstacles which quickly lost the element of high tension once successfully completed.  Yet no less daunting than the long slow process and infinite calculations required to locate objects in a room.  I have faith you will meet all further challenges with equal aplomb.  My only hope is that you will be open to the experiences of others kindly relating personal mistakes and triumphs.  

Not following at all. 

 

The reason I ask questions is because I’m open to input. Nobody in their right mind would accept and implement all input. Other than the competing philosophies, design by committee never works. 

 

I asked a specific question about a specific product and received great answers about that product. 

[Forehaven]

Great project Chris.  I'm curious, isn't Vicoustic much more expensive than say GIK acoustics?  Seems just the fact that it's a company from outside the US that would make Vicoustics cost prohibitive no?  What was your rationale?

[Richard Dale]

12 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

Great project Chris.  I'm curious, isn't Vicoustic much more expensive than say GIK acoustics?  Seems just the fact that it's a company from outside the US that would make Vicoustics cost prohibitive no?  What was your rationale?

I've bought products from both Vicoustic and GIK and I think they are both good value, and have products which can be used together and complement each other. In Europe there isn't that much difference in price or level of finish. The Vicoustic DC2 diffusers are actually cheaper per square metre than any of the GIK range of diffusers (eg the Gotham), and although they are expanded polystyrene I find them quite attractive.

 

May only criticism of Vicoustic is that their products default fixing mechanism is glue, whereas with GIK it is usually done with sawtooth hangers.

[Summit]

My only recommendation is to listen to how your audio system sound in the room you want to use before you start any renovation or invest in a lot of acoustic modification. The reason isn’t that I’m against acoustic treatments, it’s that some room are very, very difficult to get to sound good even if you spend a lot of money and time on re-building them. So best IMHO is to test its potential first and to hear if its wort re-building.  

[The Computer Audiophile]

48 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

Great project Chris.  I'm curious, isn't Vicoustic much more expensive than say GIK acoustics?  Seems just the fact that it's a company from outside the US that would make Vicoustics cost prohibitive no?  What was your rationale?

Hi Chris - I have extensive experience  with Vicoustic products through friends of mine and I know the US Distributor very well. It's very nice to pick up the phone and talk to either friends of the distributor if needed, and have direct access to Vicoustic as needed. I'm sure GIK makes great stuff as well, but I don't have any experience with the products and don't know anyone there. 

 

If they have an online project request similar to Vicoustic I should complete that as well to get two opinions.

 

[firedog]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Chris - I have extensive experience  with Vicoustic products through friends of mine and I know the US Distributor very well. It's very nice to pick up the phone and talk to either friends of the distributor if needed, and have direct access to Vicoustic as needed. I'm sure GIK makes great stuff as well, but I don't have any experience with the products and don't know anyone there. 

 

If they have an online project request similar to Vicoustic I should complete that as well to get two opinions.

 

https://www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-room-planning/

 

They will go into as much or as little detail as you'd like. Will also give you different solutions based on budget. 

 

I found them easy to work with. They gave me 3 solutions, each at a different price and effectiveness level. Absolutely no hard sell. They were happy to help and answer questions, even if I didn't buy. 

[dtb300]

+1 For GIK

 

Excellent products and performance along with superb support.

 

Not a foam lover here....(my own opinion)

[Nordkapp]

Congrats on your new room Chris.  Looks fabulous!

[mav52]

The room is looking awesome Chris.

[zephyr24069]

Great project, detail and photos,...thank you very much! It would be great to see part 2 when you've tweaked the room with Vicoustic; please provide details on what Vicoustic panels, etc...you are going to apply and the 'why' in each case.  I had heard and read that Vicoustic was difficult to come by in the US; would you mind naming your source (dealer or distributor) and how you've found their order and fullfillment + delivery process as of late?  Thanks!  Mark

[STC]

@The Computer Audiophile Generally, it is not a good idea to have a void behind your listening area. The sound will be a little clinical. Perhaps, your acoustician could suggest something to reflect the sound at the spot I circled.

 

Also, you may have a little issue with clarity as the rear wall ( window) can have a reflection of 10ms or more. It wont be an issue for full orchestra music but a typical audiophile album may feel like slightly lacking clarity. That also depends on the playback volume level. Try Stacy Kent and see if you are happy with the clarity. 

 

Just my $0.02.  

 

 

 

[Shadorne]

Vicoustic proposal looks aesthetically good but not sure it makes complete sense. The trouble with the room is that it is roughly in the shape of a half tube. This room is going to sound like a subway tunnel unless you add a lot absorption and diffusers.

 

I would suggest more corner bass traps and broadband absorbers at each end and around the listener (at least double what you have) and use only RPG diffusers on the slanted ceiling portions instead of the curved panels. The curved panels are great but work better for larger spaces. You actually don’t need curved panels and should not put anything on the vertical side walls except broadband absorbers by the listener.

 

Acoustic physics is actually quite simple. To visualize what is going on simply imagine that each surface is a mirror. Your speakers will have a virtual mirrored speaker with the vertical side wall - this is a normal listening room situation and is not a problem as imaging will still work due to the symmetry with the listener (and correct drive alignment to the ear). The problem is the slanted low cathedral image speaker. Imagine again a mirror for these slanted walls - you have another set of virtual speakers sitting higher up. These virtual speakers are a problem. They will mess up imaging as well as the response at the listener from any multi-way speaker (other than coaxial) because the drivers of the virtual speaker are not time-aligned to the listener ear. This virtual speaker will be like listening to a real speaker in the nearfield but with ear level way off the proper listening height (which should normally be aligned with mid range or tweeter). So the big issue is those slanted cathedral walls - I would just place as much RPG diffusers as you can on those slanted walls in between the listener and the speakers.

 

Of course, you might wonder why the horizontal ceiling or floor is less of an image problem and this virtual speaker can be ignored. This is fortunately taken care of by most speaker designs. The vertical dispersion is usually controlled by the speaker designer and not much energy other than low frequencies should be reflected off a 14 foot ceiling (10 feet above most speaker drivers). In addition a carpeted floor is not going to reflect much. Recall that wide speaker dispersion is desirable in the horizontal plane and unfortunately your slanted low cathedral ceiling walls are a bit too close to the speakers wider dispersion horizontal pattern. (Only perhaps 2 to 3 feet above the speaker)

 

I think the room can be fantastic if treated properly. Of huge importance is the space around the listener. Too many domestic settings have the listener sitting close to a wall and this is a terrible place to sit. All studio control rooms have plenty of space BEHIND the listener and this is absolutely critical. You have a fantastic listening position.

 

GOOD LUCK with this impressive project! Hopefully you don’t end up with a room like this!

 

George Massenburg designed studio at Nashville Blackbird Studios

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Thanks for the continued input guys. 

 

This project is getting more and more frustrating for me. I assumed this would be more of a science than an art, but given the wide range of feedback about what's right, what's wrong, and what I "should" do, it seems like much of this is an art. If this was as easy as swapping in a component to test it, I'd be enjoying the process. Unfortunately installing an acoustic package is much more difficult. 

 

I've now brought in another consultant to look at the two proposals I received from Vicoustic and GIK. As you can probably guess, his opinion differs from both of these. I'm itching to get this done because I'm not happy with the current sound of the room.

 

Thanks again for the feedback everyone.

[Shadorne]

On 11/19/2018 at 7:10 AM, STC said:

@The Computer Audiophile Generally, it is not a good idea to have a void behind your listening area. The sound will be a little clinical. Perhaps, your acoustician could suggest something to reflect the sound at the spot I circled.

 

Also, you may have a little issue with clarity as the rear wall ( window) can have a reflection of 10ms or more. It wont be an issue for full orchestra music but a typical audiophile album may feel like slightly lacking clarity. That also depends on the playback volume level. Try Stacy Kent and see if you are happy with the clarity. 

 

Just my $0.02.  

 

 

 

 

The worst thing you can do is to have clutter (or worse a wall) close to the listening position. Look at every multi million $ studio ever designed!

[Shadorne]

18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thanks for the continued input guys. 

 

This project is getting more and more frustrating for me. I assumed this would be more of a science than an art, but given the wide range of feedback about what's right, what's wrong, and what I "should" do, it seems like much of this is an art. If this was as easy as swapping in a component to test it, I'd be enjoying the process. Unfortunately installing an acoustic package is much more difficult. 

 

I've now brought in another consultant to look at the two proposals I received from Vicoustic and GIK. As you can probably guess, his opinion differs from both of these. I'm itching to get this done because I'm not happy with the current sound of the room.

 

Thanks again for the feedback everyone.

 

GIK make great products at reasonable cost. Their corner tri-traps are excellent - you would probably need 8 of those. They work as broadband absorbers too - so you get more than just bass trapping.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thanks for the continued input guys. 

 

This project is getting more and more frustrating for me. I assumed this would be more of a science than an art, but given the wide range of feedback about what's right, what's wrong, and what I "should" do, it seems like much of this is an art. If this was as easy as swapping in a component to test it, I'd be enjoying the process. Unfortunately installing an acoustic package is much more difficult. 

 

I've now brought in another consultant to look at the two proposals I received from Vicoustic and GIK. As you can probably guess, his opinion differs from both of these. I'm itching to get this done because I'm not happy with the current sound of the room.

 

Thanks again for the feedback everyone.

I'd be curious - what's the essential difference between the proposals of the two companies? 

No, it's not like swapping out components - but you can measure results and move panels/add panels/subtract panels till you get a measured response close to flat. So at least at the end, you'll know by measurement in addition to by ear. 

[Ralf11]

imagining that each surface is a mirror works well for high freq.s - not at all for low freq.s - you can have someone hold a real mirror and slide it along the wall too

 

acoustics IS a science, but in practice, it is a very complex science - there are lots and lots of things you should take account of - compare with the practice of medicine: also a science, but you have to first gather signs/symptoms, then work backwards along the chain of physiology to what could be causing them (it takes more than a few years to learn that)

 

you need a way to parse your problem... that is really what expert #3 should be doing for you

[STC]

7 hours ago, Shadorne said:

 

The worst thing you can do is to have clutter (or worse a wall) close to the listening position. Look at every multi million $ studio ever designed!

 

Listening room meant to enjoy the music is not the same as the listening room where they master or record. Somehow, the distinction got blurred and some try to recreate the studio acoustics.  Maybe, i got confused with Chris’s intention.