The Computer Audiophile Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 View full article Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
JoeWhip Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 I had to build a new listening room a couple of years ago myself as the space for the old room was being demolished and greatly expanded for a new master suite. Our attic was finished but too small. The old room and the attic had knee walls like yours. It was too small for my preferred near field listening position with the speakers along the long wall. Hence, a full shed dormer was required. The new space is much bigger than the old one, around 18 x 22. I ran two 20 amp circuits and put the speakers along the long wall using the sonic benefits provided by the knee wall. The room was filled up with my stuff and after some tweaking with speakers placement using measurements and pink noise, the room sounds fantastic. It was a pain but in the end, well worth it. Congrats on the new room. The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted November 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2018 Chris, really interesting. In terms of the topic, excuse me for saying so, but I think it is great that you are resource constrained - both physically and financially for this project. That makes it a lot more like what most readers have to deal with. My present listening room is quite small, but sounds good. I think you will be amazed at the difference those acoustic treatments will make. Done right, it will add lots of clarity and you will wonder how you thought the untreated room sounded good. The once a year or so I play the lottery, I dream about having the funds to setup a no - holds barred listening room with a system to match. The Computer Audiophile, kopelli, lpost and 2 others 4 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
JR_Audio Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Hi Chris. Oh man. A lot of work. Good luck. Juergen The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
ShawnC Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 After you sell those TAD's, how will those Magnepan 30.7's fit in there? HA! Looks great, just in time for some class A warmth for the winter. The Computer Audiophile 1 Computer setup - Roon/Qobuz - PS Audio P5 Regenerator - HIFI Rose 250A Streamer - Emotiva XPA-2 Harbeth P3ESR XD - Rel R-528 Sub Comfy Chair - Schitt Jotunheim - Meze Audio Empyrean w/Mitch Barnett's Accurate Sound FilterSet Link to comment
austinpop Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Congrats on the new space! I'll be following this journey with great interest. I hear you about that 6 AWG cable. Glad that is behind you! The Computer Audiophile 1 My Audio Setup Link to comment
ecwl Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Cool. @The Computer Audiophile, care to share the UMIK-1 REW measurement of the new room pre-acoustic treatments? Or is that reserved for part 2? Link to comment
Account Closed Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Chris, The new space looks great and don't despair as it will sound great when you are done. With this space you can do the necessary room treatments that you otherwise could not do in a family space. I say this from experience. When I sold homes in the past, I once got invited to the home of an audiophile who took me into a room that had been properly treated and the sound in that room was utterly amazing. He had very good equipment to be sure but I have never heard anything like it before or after except in a few dealer rooms. You can only do this kind of stuff when you have a dedicated space. One last recommendation would be to not replace your speakers until after you are completely finished with the acoustic treatments. You may find that it is not necessary. I look forward to the final result. Bob The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted November 10, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 10, 2018 1 hour ago, ecwl said: Cool. @The Computer Audiophile, care to share the UMIK-1 REW measurement of the new room pre-acoustic treatments? Or is that reserved for part 2? Yes, full measurements of the room in part two. I also plan to post measurements of my room below every review. wgscott and ecwl 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
loop7 Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Is there a door at the bottom of the stairs to isolate sound from the downstairs or is that not even an issue? Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Subtitled, Why it's preferable to build a brand new listening space from scratch! ha, don't we all wish that was always feasible. No electron left behind. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted November 10, 2018 Author Share Posted November 10, 2018 1 hour ago, loop7 said: Is there a door at the bottom of the stairs to isolate sound from the downstairs or is that not even an issue? Yes, a solid door at bottom of stairs. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 You weren’t kidding when you said something big was coming. I would knock down the railing and put a trap door with a pair of hydraulic pistons:) PorkChop 1 SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
Popular Post Archimago Posted November 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted November 10, 2018 Great job Chris on the full rundown of the sound room with pictures and measurements! IMO, giving readers a look and discuss measurements of the room are essential "vital statistics" for reviewers of audio equipment. A refreshing attention to detail so often missing and adds to the credibility of subjective reviews. Looking forward to seeing the before and after results! A nice reminder of how the room is a "component" and given the challenges in the room, will be interesting to see how Vicoustic's treatments can get the job done ?. wgscott and The Computer Audiophile 2 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
mitchco Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Bravo Chris @The Computer Audiophile! What a wonderful audio journey you are on. You just got to hear first hand how a room can have such an impact on sound quality with the same equipment. One item you may want to bring up in the next article is the comparison of room decay time or RT60 with REW. There is a recommended target response, based on room volume as to what the decay time should be. In the case of your room and most peoples for that matter, there is a range typically between 400 and 600 milliseconds. The rule of thumb is to aim for as much liveliness in the range, as too dead of a room sucks the life out of the music. Speaking of room ratios May I make a suggestion and I know it is after the fact. If you look at room ratios, some are better than others for the distribution of low frequencies, which sounds better to our ears. One can use a Room Mode Calculator to punch in the dimensions of ones listening environment and basically get the gist of the distribution of room modes. There is even audio output so you can hear first hand the trouble spots as you move the mouse cursor along the graph. Don't forget to turn down the volume before you try it. https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc My room ratio sucks and near the 2nd worst ratio one can get outside of a cube. This is why I am into DSP, as no amount of bass traps can unf&*k the physical dimensions of my room. My reviews of Acourate and Audiolense are testament on how good these DSP products work, but if you can start out with a decent room ratio, you are further ahead to begin with. Which brings me to my recommendation for your room. Looking at your dimensions that I popped into the room mode calculator: https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=21&w=13.9&h=9&ft=true&re=DIN 15996 - Studio Note I reduced the length from your 25' 8" to 21 feet length. Have a look at the Bolt area chart. That room ratio is a favourable ratio. Now punch in 25" 8". How much audible difference will it make? Well, the bass is unlistenable in my room without DSP. Having worked in a number of well designed studio control rooms and listening rooms with favourable room ratios, always best if you can do it. So it means putting up a false wall... the false wall could also help with low frequency damping... like a Helmholtz resonator. Whether practical or visually appealing, of course is an issue. If it is a potential room mod, Vicoustic would have to run the math to confirm. Regardless of any changes, this room will sound better than the 6.5' ceiling room. Congrats! All the best on your audio journey Chris! Mitch wgscott 1 Accurate Sound Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Agree - the length is the first thing that struck me. A nice wall to allow access behind the electronics?? OTOH, the ceiling is not flat so conv. room size calcs. need to be adjusted... Link to comment
Ajax Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 Hi Chris, Timing of your article is impeccable as I will be starting the renovation of my home in Sydney in the new year and plan to upgrade my home office and use it as a listening room. I was going to start 12 months ago but decided to renovate my body instead starting with a double knee reconstruction followed by an arthroscopic shoulder operation (which I 'm currently recovering from) and soon two new hips. I did my knees concurrently and will also do both hips at the same time. Can't stand the thought of this dragging on more than it needs to. Never been in hospital and then hit 60 and everything stopped working. I'm riddled with arthritis and in constant pain due to some genetic issues and an over active life of sport - 250 games of AFL (Aussie Rules football,) coaching tennis, surfing since I was 6, snow skiing, golf etc etc. Now I'm fuc.....ed, although once I get my new hips I should be right. My mates are calling me the $6 million man, but I have explained it is the surgeons getting rich not me - hopefully they have a frequent flyer program! Love your work and have learnt a lot from CA over the years. Many thanks, Ajax Jud 1 LOUNGE: Mac Mini - Audirvana - Devialet 200 - ATOHM GT1 Speakers OFFICE : Mac Mini - Audirvana - Benchmark DAC1HDR - ADAM A7 Active Monitors TRAVEL : MacBook Air - Dragonfly V1.2 DAC - Sennheiser HD 650 BEACH : iPhone 6 - HRT iStreamer DAC - Akimate Micro + powered speakers Link to comment
Ron Scubadiver Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 My listening room is in a similar finished attic 18x14 plus other stuff with a ceiling 9' in the center. However, I have LS50 speakers placed along the long wall and listen mid field with bass reinforced by a Martin Logan 1000W sub. Link to comment
ecwl Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 @The Computer Audiophile, I thought the project is already complete and we are just eagerly waiting for you to write up the next part? Or is nothing set in stone yet? I was always under the impression that the most important part of setting up the room is getting the most even bass response which you can use your UMIK1 to do by moving it around to find the optimal seating position. I noticed you may not have a lot of room to move the seat a few feet forwards or backwards. And then if the best seating position is useable, then speaker placement and toeing in comes next followed by acoustic treatment. Mainly because acoustic treatments are unable to address low-bass issues in a room. I used to use room ratio calculators but I’ve found there are always nuances of a house/room that those calculators don’t capture so it’s just easier to play pink noise with speakers and move the microphone around. Or maybe you’re going to talk about all that? I just got a little confused by Mitchco’s comments. Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted November 12, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 12, 2018 The room acoustics aren’t in place yet. I received the proposal and I’m moving forward with it. ecwl and ednaz 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Sam Lord Posted November 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted November 12, 2018 Chris, Congratulations on nearly completing the hard work to create a consistent, carefully-designed space. I assume that the acoustics company will make estimates for ideal placement of your speakers...perhaps for every new set you review. Some photos show them placed at roughly the 1/4 and 3/4 room width positions. In a rectangular space that would be a big problem, but for your short, beveled ceiling the rule of thirds could be cast aside. I too have a long, narrow space, and so I place my speakers wider but still at odd fractions of the width, 1/5 and 4/5. You can't exactly do that because of the bevels, so I'll be very interested to read your final placing. Good job getting the multiple circuits, ethernet, and 6GA wire in, big chore. Finally and unrelated, I watched your RMAF session on MQA and was angered by the rudeness of the obvious MQA plants who disrupted your talk. I think security should have been drawn in, but you insisted on being fair to those interjectors. You demonstrated great tolerance; I hope you can repeat the event later with a more respectful group. Cheers Jud and The Computer Audiophile 1 1 Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position. Link to comment
ednaz Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 I know it might not be a lot of fun, but it WOULD be interesting and educational to see how things measure with different components of the acoustical system installed. I don't mean putting things in and taking them out... but maybe ask Vicoustic to recommend an installation pattern from what they believe will be most impactful to least impactful, and then measure at a couple of different stages. For our family room in our new house, I had to negotiate the degree to which I included acoustic treatments with my Decorator in Chief. I had some discussions with architect friends who often design sound studios and performance spaces, to decide what to push hardest, and get some alternative suggestions where the best solution looked - um - industrial. (That's the nicest word used by the Decorator in Chief about some of the recommendations.) That led to my enthusiasm for some decorative drapes made from specific fabrics that were both acoustically and visually agreeable. And, led to me getting a few of my photographs (my part time profession) printed on acoustic panels of the right specs and sizes. Acoustic absorption was the easiest part of the negotiations. We also came to some agreement on diffusion that were pretty creative. We moved furniture around to create a couple of table top and cabinet top "sculpture gardens". We've got carved wood and cast sculptures, some pretty large, from world travels. Now we've got nice displays, not in ideal locations, but close enough. Also moved a couple large carved masks onto walls in the room for some diffusion help, where originally we were going to hang photos. We measured with ears, and the bass traps and back wall absorption (the acoustic panel photos) made huge improvements. We found one recommended bass trap had near zero value, because of a carpeted stairway right next to where it was supposed to go. The diffusion ideas were harder to notice with music, but when we did them, they DID improve my "hand clap" test results. My basement studio and printing workshop are next - a very long, somewhat narrow room, 9 foot ceiling, carpeted floor. I've got some thick Tibetan and Middle Eastern rugs I'm hanging for absorption, another thick one over the carpet up close to the speakers (carpet on concrete wasn't quite enough) and that leftover bass trap now has a home. All made much easier because the speakers I use down there are pretty insensitive to placement - open baffle (effectively dipole) woofers, cardioid mid and tweeters. Confused 1 Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 16 minutes ago, ednaz said: I know it might not be a lot of fun, but it WOULD be interesting and educational to see how things measure with different components of the acoustical system installed. I don't mean putting things in and taking them out... but maybe ask Vicoustic to recommend an installation pattern from what they believe will be most impactful to least impactful, and then measure at a couple of different stages. For our family room in our new house, I had to negotiate the degree to which I included acoustic treatments with my Decorator in Chief. I had some discussions with architect friends who often design sound studios and performance spaces, to decide what to push hardest, and get some alternative suggestions where the best solution looked - um - industrial. (That's the nicest word used by the Decorator in Chief about some of the recommendations.) That led to my enthusiasm for some decorative drapes made from specific fabrics that were both acoustically and visually agreeable. And, led to me getting a few of my photographs (my part time profession) printed on acoustic panels of the right specs and sizes. Acoustic absorption was the easiest part of the negotiations. We also came to some agreement on diffusion that were pretty creative. We moved furniture around to create a couple of table top and cabinet top "sculpture gardens". We've got carved wood and cast sculptures, some pretty large, from world travels. Now we've got nice displays, not in ideal locations, but close enough. Also moved a couple large carved masks onto walls in the room for some diffusion help, where originally we were going to hang photos. We measured with ears, and the bass traps and back wall absorption (the acoustic panel photos) made huge improvements. We found one recommended bass trap had near zero value, because of a carpeted stairway right next to where it was supposed to go. The diffusion ideas were harder to notice with music, but when we did them, they DID improve my "hand clap" test results. My basement studio and printing workshop are next - a very long, somewhat narrow room, 9 foot ceiling, carpeted floor. I've got some thick Tibetan and Middle Eastern rugs I'm hanging for absorption, another thick one over the carpet up close to the speakers (carpet on concrete wasn't quite enough) and that leftover bass trap now has a home. All made much easier because the speakers I use down there are pretty insensitive to placement - open baffle (effectively dipole) woofers, cardioid mid and tweeters. Thanks for all the info. I'm with your Decorator in Chief :~) I'm not a big fan of making a listening room look like a place one would never want to spend time. I'm working with Vicoustic on colors etc... to make things look good for a reasonable price. Back to your original point about measuring differences between different options. I would love to do that and will plan to do that if it isn't too time consuming. But, it's such valuable information I think I have to do it and write about it. Confused 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
miguelito Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 12 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: The room acoustics aren’t in place yet. I received the proposal and I’m moving forward with it. What are you doing with the top? Those beams and ceiling corner look scary. NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul system pics Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 Just now, miguelito said: What are you doing with the top? Those beams and ceiling corner look scary. I'm going to leave the top / ceiling alone for now and see how it turns about. Vicoustic didn't recommend anything for this area. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
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