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NAS Newbie needs recommendation


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A problem with my home's main fuse killed quite a bit of my electronics, including my Exposure amp, and several of my external hard drives.

 

My landlord will be reimbursing the purchase of the replacement (luckily, I have off-site copies of pretty much everything, so not losing a lot of data. Reminder to keep your backups in order!!!!)

 

So far I had over time accumulated about 9TB of external drives in the form of 3 WD USB drives, of 2, 3 and 4TB carrying music, pics, and other stuff.

 

Instead of recreating the external USB drive mess, I'd like to replace all this by a single NAS solution. 

 

Is there anything people would recommend?

 

I may actually not need all of the 9TB but could probably live after some cleanups with 6TB of real memory need. Do all NAS do the internal backup cloning thingy, i.e. do I need to target 2x6TB NAS or will something smaller suffice?

 

Any advice is welcome. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dan Gravell said:

 

Do you mean RAID?

 

RAID does a lot of things but I think the use case you are getting at relates to its use as an availability solution - it improves availability by having redundant disks so if there's a failure on one, you can get to the data on the other, BECAUSE YOU ABSOLUTELY NEED IT NOW.

 

It is not a backup solution, and so your requirement for RAID as an availability solution is only really dictated on how fast you need to access your library (can you wait a few days for a new drive to be posted and for you to restore from backup?).

That’s what I meant. And yes I absolutely believe in off site backups otherwise last week I would have lost pretty much ALL of my data. 

 

So so in summary if I don’t need RAID in an 8TB NAS i can basically use all 8GB for data?

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RAID is nice to have because if one HD fails installing a replacement is easy.

 

Back ups are still necessary. I use Carbon Copy Cloner, point it to the NAS and it works flawlessly, automatically.. Like you, I have off site backups which I swap manually. I've never had much success with cloud backup services... seems like they never end. I must admit to not looking too deep into that solution since off site is so easy.

 

Here is a handy online calculator for figuring the capacity of any RAID. Synology uses Smart Raid which is essentially the same as Raid 5.

 

I have a 1513+ Synology, I can't run ROON server on it because of its processor, but I do know that Synology makes other models that have adequate processing power. I've had it running continuously for 5 years with WD 3TB drives. Occasional dusting is all I've done. Synology has a browser based OS, automatic notifications of updates - absolutely turnkey all the way. I have everything on my NAS: iTunes media, audiobooks, movies, and minimserver for music. 

 

The initial setup was from Small Green Computer, so it was ready for music right away (i.e., minimserver installed). Since then, I have gone to A+ running on a dedicated Mac mini and you just point A+ to the NAS and that's all there is to it. I've used the NAS with BubbleUp Server for an OpenHome environment and Lumin App. All of this can be left running in the background - there to use whenever you want.

 

Once you get a NAS you will never go back.  

 

Edit: I would leave the NAS with RAID. It is meant to be used that way.

 

"The function of music is to release us from the tyranny of conscious thought", Sir Thomas Beecham. 

 

 

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Agreed! RAID is a must in my view. Once you have a NAS, the cost of an addition disk to enable RAID is negligible and the single disk sizes these days allow for a NAS with RAID enabled and limited bays to still support a huge amount of storage. I've run a NAS for many years, in that time, I've had disk failures (even though I have top-shelf enterprise-class disks) which because of RAID were far easier to deal with than having to go to some form of backup (which I also have).

 

Also, if you are using Synology, I highly recommend configuring your volumes to be Btfrs. At this point, most models support this.

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3 hours ago, diecaster said:

I am ex data-center manager and I abhor NAS or RAID unless you really need it. There is juts more systems and drives that can fail. People that need NAS and RAID for home setups are few and far between. I know that everyone and their brother sells home network solutions, but most people don't need RAID or a NAS.

 

Simple really is best. Especially if you already have a backup plan that included off-site backups and don't have a need to be up in 10 minutes after a failure.

 

For audio, I prefer a dedicated headless server with enough attached storage to handle all of my audio files plus some extra room for expansion.

The idea is that I want to access the same content wirelessly from my IMac and MacBook Pro. I understand I don’t need RAID for that but what alternatives do you see to a NAS, beyond buying 8TB of cloud storage?

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I think RAID 1 (mirroring) makes sense if you buy a lot of music.  I don't understand why anyone gets into things like RAID 10 (striping with parity) for music files.  You can just buy two large capacity drives today and mirror them.  Does anyone need more than 12TB?

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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7 minutes ago, rickca said:

I think RAID 1 (mirroring) makes sense if you buy a lot of music.  I don't understand why anyone gets into things like RAID 10 (striping with parity) for music files.  You can just buy two large capacity drives today and mirror them.  Does anyone need more than 12TB?

 

Why does RAID1 makes sense unless you need the high availability? It's not a backup. All RAID1 does is double the chances of a failure. 

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12 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

Why does RAID1 makes sense unless you need the high availability? It's not a backup. All RAID1 does is double the chances of a failure. 

It's a lot easier than managing a backup.  Of course, it doesn't give you an offsite copy.  I'm not trying to convince anyone to do this, I'm just saying it makes more sense than fancier schemes like RAID 10.

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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4 minutes ago, rickca said:

It's a lot easier than managing a backup.  Of course, it doesn't give you an offsite copy.  I'm not trying to convince anyone to do this, I'm just saying it makes more sense than fancier schemes like RAID 10.

 

Don't fall into the trap of letting any level of RAID alter your backup plan. RAID is not a backup plan in any way shape or form. It is a high availability tool. That's it.

 

You pick RAID10 because you want the speed of RAID0 with the high availability of RAID1. Again...not a backup plan.

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17 minutes ago, Rushton said:

Interesting discussion and timely for me.  I got the same advice that Diecaster shared from an audiophile friend who is a systems administrator for a major bank: keep it simple, don't use a NAS. He maintains over 20TB of music and video data in his library. But he doesn't use a NAS. Instead, he uses multiple external USB hard drives attached to a NUC on a powered USB hub. He backs each primary drive up to a second drive, also an external USB drive.

 

Once a primary drive is filled over time to about 80%, he stops adding data to it. He adds a new drive to his hub and starts putting any new data on that new drive. The filled drive gets "locked down" from further data changes. The new drive also gets its own dedicated backup drive.

 

Since the filled primary drives are rarely modified after being filled, the backup drives are simply "cold storage" copies of the primary. The backup can remain in cold storage, disconnected and unpowered, until there is some reason to power them up (like running a diagnostic to see how the magnetic encoding is holding up over time or if some intentional editing is done to the data on a "filled" drive).

 

This seemed simple, logical and eminently practical to me - so I'm following his advice. Since the backup drives are disconnected and off-line, they are not exposed to risk of electrical surges and experience very-little-to-no physical wear and tear. Should there be a third backup drive for each primary that can be placed off-site? Probably.

 

This sounds very laborious and prone to user error. Use a NAS. If you want backup, which you should, replicate to a duplicate NAS. Keep that off site if needed. 

 

I’ve set this up many times and it works great. Never have to touch anything and receive emails if a drive is going bad. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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20 hours ago, diecaster said:

I am ex data-center manager and I abhor NAS or RAID unless you really need it. There is juts more systems and drives that can fail. People that need NAS and RAID for home setups are few and far between. I know that everyone and their brother sells home network solutions, but most people don't need RAID or a NAS.

 

Simple really is best. Especially if you already have a backup plan that included off-site backups and don't have a need to be up in 10 minutes after a failure.

 

For audio, I prefer a dedicated headless server with enough attached storage to handle all of my audio files plus some extra room for expansion.

For me simple means a NAS. A kludge of several attached drives, then backed up to several more drives is a pain for me. Plus, the time between backups right before you backup again is when data is lost. Always happens this way. 

 

NAS with all the available apps replicating to cloud or another NAS is dead simple. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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The trouble with NAS and RAID is if the NAS controller dies, so does the data, that is, still maybe saved if there is a spare identical NAS, so the drives can plug straight in, and who has that? My QNAP NAS is disconnected and used as a storage container for 4 x 3TB drives at the moment for at least a year. I found the updates, less than intuitive software, extremely slow boot up time and crazy spin up delays a nuisance for daily use.

 

A few years ago 3TB drives were the largest storage, now larger ones are available, thankfully. Today I use a standard tower server with enough bays to house several enterprise 6TB drives.

They are arranged in pairs, so on the same machine, there's duplicates of kindred data and are on standard NTFS volumes, so if the motherboard or OS drive fails, the drives can be read by any Windows install. Finally there are two standard portable USB drives as backup media for the main drives, updated every few weeks or when new music is purchased for music files only. For fun I measured the power consumption of the NAS compared to the tower server. For four drives + an SSD OS disk, mobo, single Xeon ATX supply and all was about 30% less than the NAS.

 

For MacOS, the hardware solution is a bit grim, since there's no tower or large disk arrays that are extensions for MacOS off the shelf without paying an arm or a leg for distance restrictive Thunderbolt, just an array of portable drives like an octopus and will fail if left on for 24/7 sooner or later. Even with my amateur Mac to Windows networking and permissions skills, my High Sierra Macmini can read movie files on a windows server, so all is not lost for music files. 

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A good discussion all around. Clearly we've all found different solutions, with the key being backup, backup, backup. We all know to assume that every drive will fail at some point, so the question is "How do we prefer to recover from the drive failure?"

 

One and a Half raises a serious concern that I've had: failure of the NAS controller that wipes out the entire array. It happens. I'd rather it not happen with my data so I'm choosing the multiple redundant external drives. No common failure point, backups not connected to the network or to power. Is it a bit more burdensome to maintain? Hmmmm..., not sure about that. 

 

Good to have a this wide-ranging discussion of alternatives and considerations. Thanks to everyone who has been contributing!

 

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If you only need 6TB then a single external 8TB drive should be just fine. No mess, even with a second external drive (kept offline) for backup.

 

I don't know what media software you're using, but check the support forums for your product. While many people are using NAS without trouble, it does appear to be involved in a significant percentage of requests for help.

 

Finally, having worked in IT I'll say that RAID controller failures have caused me a lot more grief than hard drive failures.

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42 minutes ago, Rushton said:

A good discussion all around. Clearly we've all found different solutions, with the key being backup, backup, backup. We all know to assume that every drive will fail at some point, so the question is "How do we prefer to recover from the drive failure?"

 

One and a Half raises a serious concern that I've had: failure of the NAS controller that wipes out the entire array. It happens. I'd rather it not happen with my data so I'm choosing the multiple redundant external drives. No common failure point, backups not connected to the network or to power. Is it a bit more burdensome to maintain? Hmmmm..., not sure about that. 

 

Good to have a this wide-ranging discussion of alternatives and considerations. Thanks to everyone who has been contributing!

 

Thanks for the post. Great attitude toward this as well. Refreshing ?

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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57 minutes ago, Rushton said:

One and a Half raises a serious concern that I've had: failure of the NAS controller that wipes out the entire array.

Yes, that is a possibility and it underscores the point that any primary storage device, RAID or not, requires a full backup device (or two).

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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