Dealing with EMI/RFI on home network (streamer on wired LAN)

[HookEm]

Here's what I'm considering for my wired streamer:

[Streamer]<RJ45>--Patch Cable--<RJ45><RJ45 Keystone Wall-Jack>--20ft Bulk Cable--<RJ45>[1GB Ethernet Switch]

 

1) Cable between Ethernet Switch and Wall-Plate:

- CAT6a Double Shielded (SSTP/SFTP) Ethernet Cable

- At Switch end: Shielded CAT6a Termination Plug (RJ45)

- At Wall-Plate end:  RJ45 Shielded Cat6A Keystone Jack

 

2) Cable between Wall-Plate and Streamer/DAC:

- CAT7 Double Shielded 10 Gigabit 600MHz Ethernet Patch Cable, SSTP.

 

Basically:

- Cat6a/Cat7, instead of Cat6 for 1GB connections

- Shielded cables & connectors all around (including all other Ethernet Switch connections).

Question: Is this overkill, or have some of you tried this and observed significant improvement?

 

Thanks.

[agillis]

This is not overkill. Shielded networking makes a difference. Some users are using fiber optic networking to eliminate even more noise.

 

We recommend shielded networks to our customers that purchase our Rendu Series network players such as the microRendu.

 

A good Ethernet switch helps as well. This is a really good one (and cheap). This switch out preforms some smart switches that cost $1000+

 

https://www.trendnet.com/products/proddetail?prod=510_TEG-S50G

 

Another thing I have been experimenting with is removing the shield from one connector on the Ethernet cable that connects to the streamer. This way the cabled is still shielded but you are not creating a potential ground loop.

 

[Ralf11]

This is may or may not be overkill, depending on the rest of your system, how your DAC handles EM noise, and types of music you listen to, etc. etc.  Shielded networking may make a difference.

 

I use WiFi for Redbook via Apple iTunes.

 

Do a search on clearfog and read @jabbr 's comments.  There is a DIY aspect to that.  What we need is a low-cost plug&play solution.

 

are you running cables right now or are they already there?

 

you can also hunt down (and compile) posts by @barrows on wired Ethernet

[rickca]

21 minutes ago, agillis said:

This switch out preforms some smart switches that cost $1000+

 

https://www.trendnet.com/products/proddetail?prod=510_TEG-S50G

What's the difference between this switch and something like a Netgear GS105?

[mansr]

17 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Shielded networking may make a difference.

For better or worse.

[HookEm]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

For better or worse.

Please expand... Why "worse"?
 

[Miska]

22 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

This is may or may not be overkill, depending on the rest of your system, how your DAC handles EM noise, and types of music you listen to, etc. etc.  Shielded networking may make a difference.

 

I would stay away with shielded Ethernet, you tend to screw up the galvanic isolation it would otherwise provide that way. Ethernet uses differential signaling, so common mode noise is rejected largely at the isolation magnetics already and rest at the receiver.

 

I use unshielded CAT 6 and it works great. I have couple of short feeds in the machine room using shielded, but that's all.

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, HookEm said:

- Shielded cables & connectors all around (including all other Ethernet Switch connections).

Question: Is this overkill, or have some of you tried this and observed significant improvement?

 

You may get significant degradation by creating new ground current paths. Defeating one of the good reasons to use Ethernet in first place.

 

With the microRendu I have, I use this kind of thin CAT6 UTP cable, doesn't pull the device around annyingly either and works for short distances. Switch measures cable lengths/losses and adjusts transmit powers automatically so it doesn't blast unnecessarily loud.

 

[Ralf11]

A DAC with opto-isolators in it solves a LOT of problems.

 

Unfortunately, I do not know of any reasonably priced ones, just the Lumin.

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

A DAC with opto-isolators in it solves a LOT of problems.

 

Unfortunately, I do not know of any reasonably priced ones, just the Lumin.

 

exaSound and Holo Audio come to mind with isolated USB...

 

But certainly optical Ethernet clears all those problems. (unless again some audiophile cable company gets a great idea and puts metal shields of fibers too)

 

[agillis]

20 hours ago, Miska said:

I would stay away with shielded Ethernet, you tend to screw up the galvanic isolation it would otherwise provide that way.

 

I 100% agree! see my post able about removing the grounding from one end of the network cable. This way you get both shielding AND galvanic isolation.

[agillis]

20 hours ago, rickca said:

What's the difference between this switch and something like a Netgear GS105?

 

I don't know! there are tones of different switches out there and many different versions of each one. As you might imagine we do a lot of network support here at Small Green Computer. People are always calling me with networking problems that are stoopingGS105  our Rendu Players from working corectlly and I help them out

 

I was looking for a switch that was low cost and  works very well with network audio and the TRENDnet was the best one I found.

 

I did not do extensive testing on all the other switch out there. As you can image this would be impossible.

 

The specs on your GS105 look good with fast switch and good sized packet buffer. What I don't like is it says it has QoS. QoS is usually good but you have not idea what it's doing so it could be bad. 

 

It's better to keep everything non audio related off your switch and not use QoS.

[Miska]

55 minutes ago, agillis said:

The specs on your GS105 look good with fast switch and good sized packet buffer. What I don't like is it says it has QoS. QoS is usually good but you have not idea what it's doing so it could be bad. 

 

It's better to keep everything non audio related off your switch and not use QoS.

 

It usually means support for Ethernet spec 802.1p.

 

In my network I have everything going through layers of switches. My machine room has two switches connected to each other and to the central patchbay. And then each room have their own switches between wall socket and equipment. Internet, audio and everything goes through this and works perfectly fine. QoS makes sure audio has proper priority over other traffic. I also prioritize different types of traffic on the internet firewalls.

 

For HQPlayer - NAA use case, 802.3x and 802.1p are important. And I also consider 802.3az important (lowers network noise).

 

At the moment, I'm using Zyxel GS1100 series switch in the listening room, because it had all the features I wanted. So far, nothing to complain. My office and machine room switches are managed ones from HPE.

 

1 hour ago, agillis said:

I 100% agree! see my post able about removing the grounding from one end of the network cable. This way you get both shielding AND galvanic isolation.

 

It's just that if you modify any network cable, you should measure/re-certify it's compliance because changes may change the signal properties too...

 

[Ralf11]

12 hours ago, Miska said:

 

exaSound and Holo Audio come to mind with isolated USB...

 

But certainly optical Ethernet clears all those problems. (unless again some audiophile cable company gets a great idea and puts metal shields of fibers too)

 

 

the Holo Audio Spring?  it's "only $2,600" so that's a start...

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

the Holo Audio Spring?  it's "only $2,600" so that's a start...

 

Yes, and I think Cyan has the same USB interface card too.

 

[HookEm]

Thank you all for the replies, it was very instructive.

 

I’ve opted for unshielded (UTP) cables and connectors, plus a pair of FMCs between the Ethernet switch and the Streamer (about a 45-ft run, using LC-LC patch cable).

 

FMC: TRENDnet TFC-1000MGA

SFP Module: TRENDnet TI-MGBSX

 

BTW,

I wil ditch the wall-warts on the FMCs, and will be feed them from a linear-regulated 5VDC power supply,