Article: My Quest for a New DAC, Part 3 - Denafrips Terminator

[austinpop]

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[rickca]

Excellent work, thank you!  Questions ...

 

Aren't you supposed to use NOS mode when using software upsampling?  Otherwise, aren't you hearing some interaction between the software DSP and the Denafrips OS mode?  Does ROON upsampling to 352.8/384 PCM bypass the Terminator OS mode filter?

It's really too bad you couldn't try PCM to DSD upsampling.  Does the Terminator OS mode do PCM to DSD conversion, or does it only upsample DSD input to DSD256?

 

It doesn't look like you didn't evaluate the Terminator with DSD input, is that right?  Isn't that supposed to be one of its strengths?

 

OK now I have to listen to the Apple announcements.

[nc42acc]

As an owner of a Terminator I think you may have left something on the table in your review by not taking full advantage of the DSD capabilities of the Terminator in NOS mode. 

[firedog]

Austinpop-

Great review. Gives a good picture of the DACs.
BTW, I also bought the "Journey" album for much the same reasons. I can just say it is a really good recording, and very enjoyable for anyone who likes well done Indian-Western fusions. 

[austinpop]

15 minutes ago, rickca said:

Excellent work, thank you!  Questions ...

 

Aren't you supposed to use NOS mode when using software upsampling?  Otherwise, aren't you hearing some interaction between the software DSP and the Denafrips OS mode?  Does ROON upsampling to 352.8/384 PCM bypass the Terminator OS mode filter?

 

It's my understanding the Terminator bypasses internal OS when presented with a DXD (352.8/384) PCM stream, which is what you get when Roon upsampling is enabled. Certainly, I tried it both ways, and could not hear any difference with the NOS mode set to ON or OFF. So I left NOS set to OFF (i.e. OS ON) for all my test.

 

15 minutes ago, rickca said:

It's really too bad you couldn't try PCM to DSD upsampling.  Does the Terminator OS mode do PCM to DSD conversion, or does it only upsample DSD input to DSD256?

 

 

Again, from Mr. Zhao's quote in the article, OS mode upsamples PCM to 352.8/384 and DSD to DSD256. I do not believe there is any PCM to DSD conversion.

[austinpop]

24 minutes ago, rickca said:

It doesn't look like you didn't evaluate the Terminator with DSD input, is that right?  Isn't that supposed to be one of its strengths?

 

Actually, I listened to a lot of DSD content on the Terminator, but just happened to choose PCM tracks to discuss the comparisons. I have a lot of DSD in my library from several 100s of ripped SACDs.

 

It's actually a credit to the Terminator that it sounds equally good with both DSD and PCM input, and I never really even paid attention to sample rate and format when I did my listening. With good gear, you just get into a zone, where you play one piece, then feel compelled to listen to another, and then another, until you realize it's 4am? Yeah that happened a lot. 

 

11 minutes ago, nc42acc said:

As an owner of a Terminator I think you may have left something on the table in your review by not taking full advantage of the DSD capabilities of the Terminator in NOS mode. 

 

If you're referring to DSD content, see my comment above!

 

If you mean SW upsampling of all content (PCM and DSD) to DSD256, you may be right - we work with what we have, and I did not have an infrastructure to do so. As I clearly stated in the article.

[nc42acc]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

austinpop thank you for the clarification regarding the DSD content being used. Not uncommon for our experiences to be different in what we have heard with the Terminator. Great review as it shows how great digital has come down to the level attainable to most any audiophile.

[Ralf11]

Thanks for your listening impressions.

 

I just want to highlight one part of your review:

1. the clock architecture

2. the PSU design

3. the analog stage

 

All very important design criteria.  (maybe add input noise isolation?)

 

We often see people posting about the latest DAC chip, sometimes in very ... um... "affordably priced" DACs.  I suspect the above items are more important.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Thanks for your listening impressions.

 

I just want to highlight one part of your review:

1. the clock architecture

2. the PSU design

3. the analog stage

 

All very important design criteria.  (maybe add input noise isolation?)

 

We often see people posting about the latest DAC chip, sometimes in very ... um... "affordably priced" DACs.  I suspect the above items are more important.

 

Thanks for picking up on that, and reinforcing them. I certainly put a lot of weight on these factors. I'm curious if others do too. To the list above I would add a few more - and even this is not a complete list:

• noise isolation
  • at inputs
  • RF/EMI
  • between stages
• quality and selection of discrete components and modules, like capacitors, resistors, regulators, etc
• mechanical isolation
• quality of board layout, especially connectivity between key subcomponents

This is an area where my professional experience (my day job, not audio related) informs my audio evaluations. In my field of computer systems performance and scalability, one of the key things I look for when hiring talent, is that individual's ability and willingness to approach systems holistically. The same is true of audio components. A DAC is a complex digital system, whose performance is determined by the quality and performance of a myriad of subsystems and characteristics, like those listed above.

[feelingears]

This is exactly the kind of review I enjoy reading because most of the time, it is all about trade-offs: air and space vs. museum, etc. (Read: timbre, reverb rendering vs. soundstaging; or PRAT vs. tubes; or whatever.) Thank you, @austinpop ??

 

I too have weighed the same choices you describe over various recordings and tuned my system to my preferences. A shame you don't have the A2 Yggy as I've read it does for the foundational bass and mid-range body what the original lacks. I had the MB Gungnir, which some say is very similar to the Yggy, but I found it a very different animal than Yggy A2. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts when your friend gets his back. I'd loan you mine, but it doesn't want to travel! ?

 

And further to your point about trade-offs: I recently had the unexpected pleasure of hearing a healthy six-figure McIntosh and Magico system in a tuned, five-figure room at a dealer back East. It was supremely Magico-l, to be sure. But, I did not come home feeling like I'm lacking in any way–indeed, having that reference experience reinforced my (great) satisfaction with my trade-off choices for my system. Something I think you make an effort to point out in your review. We all know there are financial diminishing returns in this hobby, but that doesn't mean the emotional curve must match; quite the opposite can be true.

 

Thanks again! Can't wait for more–keep the musical/recording comparisons coming!

 

 

[austinpop]

22 minutes ago, feelingears said:

This is exactly the kind of review I enjoy reading because most of the time, it is all about trade-offs: air and space vs. museum, etc. (Read: timbre, reverb rendering vs. soundstaging; or PRAT vs. tubes; or whatever.) Thank you, @austinpop ??

 

I too have weighed the same choices you describe over various recordings and tuned my system to my preferences. A shame you don't have the A2 Yggy as I've read it does for the foundational bass and mid-range body what the original lacks. I had the MB Gungnir, which some say is very similar to the Yggy, but I found it a very different animal than Yggy A2. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts when your friend gets his back. I'd loan you mine, but it doesn't want to travel! ?

 

And further to your point about trade-offs: I recently had the unexpected pleasure of hearing a healthy six-figure McIntosh and Magico system in a tuned, five-figure room at a dealer back East. It was supremely Magico-l, to be sure. But, I did not come home feeling like I'm lacking in any way–indeed, having that reference experience reinforced my (great) satisfaction with my trade-off choices for my system. Something I think you make an effort to point out in your review. We all know there are financial diminishing returns in this hobby, but that doesn't mean the emotional curve must match; quite the opposite can be true.

 

Thanks again! Can't wait for more–keep the musical/recording comparisons coming!

 

 

 

I greatly appreciate your comments. Thanks!

[Ralf11]

I'd like to start a new thread with those factors (or design considerations) - what do you think?

 

It is something a consumer could look for when choosing a short list of DACs.

 

(I also thought you were a Bus. Prof. at UT?)

[austinpop]

18 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I'd like to start a new thread with those factors (or design considerations) - what do you think?

 

It is something a consumer could look for when choosing a short list of DACs.

 

Sounds like a great idea!

 

18 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

(I also thought you were a Bus. Prof. at UT?)

 

Nope, this little piggy (PhD) went to the market - i.e. industry.

[asdf1000]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

We often see people posting about the latest DAC chip, sometimes in very ... um... "affordably priced" DACs.  I suspect the above items are more important.

 

From one of the most qualified people and highly respected DAC designers, the late Charles Hansen...

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35106-how-does-a-perfect-dac-analog-signal-look-different-than-a-cheap-dac/?page=7&tab=comments#comment-713189

 

 

It's always a great read when we fall into the mood of 'armchair expert' every now and then (we all do it occasionally, myself included).

 

[austinpop]

12 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

From one of the most qualified people and highly respected DAC designers, the late Charles Hansen...

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35106-how-does-a-perfect-dac-analog-signal-look-different-than-a-cheap-dac/?page=7&tab=comments#comment-713189

 

 

It's always a great read when we fall into the mood of 'armchair expert' every now and then (we all do it occasionally, myself included).

 

 

Wow, thanks for that. One for the bookmarks!

 

I respected Charley immensely, and he undoubtedly forgot more about DAC design than I ever know! I’m just relieved to find that my views of a DAC as a holistic system are validated by his expert perspective.

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Wow, thanks for that. One for the bookmarks!

 

Should be essential reading for anyone that joins CA Forum ?

 

These aren't just Charley's views... you'll find a lot in common, in discussions with some of the other most qualified and respected DAC designers (i.e. real experts on the subject) on the planet...

 

 

[KDinsmore]

When are you going to try an MSB? ?

[austinpop]

12 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

It's my understanding the Terminator bypasses internal OS when presented with a DXD (352.8/384) PCM stream, which is what you get when Roon upsampling is enabled. Certainly, I tried it both ways, and could not hear any difference with the NOS mode set to ON or OFF. So I left NOS set to OFF (i.e. OS ON) for all my test.

 

 

 

Again, from Mr. Zhao's quote in the article, OS mode upsamples PCM to 352.8/384 and DSD to DSD256. I do not believe there is any PCM to DSD conversion.

 

I double checked this with Denafrips and this is their response.

 

Quote

In NOS mode, all input data decoded as it is, no upsampling or filtering applied. 

 

In OS mode, input PCM will be upsampled to DXD, input DSD will be upsampled to DSD256. If the input data is already DXD or DSD256, the DAC does not do anything.

 

I hope that clarifies things!

[One and a half]

Thanks @austinpop for a pleasant read of a review, far, far superior to 6moons any day!

 

I got to thinking about the bass output from the Terminator compared to the Ayre and how it relates to 70's rock played on my system. 70's rock transfers to CD are anaemic, with little bass, some believe it was a goof up of phase inversion during the process from master or copy tapes to CD. Be that as it is, I'm wondering whether the Terminator detects this phase inversion from the file metadata, or it automatically adds extra bass as per normal conversion processes, = colours the sound. In the case of the Ayre, then it should be truer to fidelity than the Terminator, since the bass information is just not there from the original.

[mevdinc]

@austinpop,
I find your reviews very informative and enjoyable. I like your comparisons, and the way you highlight the differences, taking into your own personal preferences too. Well done.

iFI Pro iDSD seems to pack amazing set of features in a compact size with a reasonable price tag. Could be another candidate for you to consider and would be great for us readers to reed your thoughts on it.

Best.
Mev

[analogue]

"Denafrips" .....  luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuv dat name!!! Just rolls off da tounge!

And "Terminator" ... that was a bloody, R-rated movie. And sci-fi to boot. But the T's main CPU was designed by CyberDyne, right?  Is Denafrips = CyberDyne?

[austinpop]

8 hours ago, One and a half said:

Thanks @austinpop for a pleasant read of a review, far, far superior to 6moons any day!

 

I got to thinking about the bass output from the Terminator compared to the Ayre and how it relates to 70's rock played on my system. 70's rock transfers to CD are anaemic, with little bass, some believe it was a goof up of phase inversion during the process from master or copy tapes to CD. Be that as it is, I'm wondering whether the Terminator detects this phase inversion from the file metadata, or it automatically adds extra bass as per normal conversion processes, = colours the sound. In the case of the Ayre, then it should be truer to fidelity than the Terminator, since the bass information is just not there from the original.

 

That's a good question. DACs these days claim ruler flat frequency response, so it's not like there's an obvious dip or hump. That said, I haven't actually seen the claimed response of the Terminator as a graph, but just in the specs where they claim: 

Frequency Response

20-40KHz -0.2dB

 

You can call it color if you like, but certainly the Terminator does have a distinctive tonal signature.

[austinpop]

8 hours ago, toetapaudio said:

@austinpop, thanks for an amazingly thorough review. I like your setup diagram.

 

Thanks!

 

8 hours ago, toetapaudio said:

Some suggestions to improve your setup, if I may. Try Sablon USB and LAN cables and Bybee Signal Enhancers on your mains consumer unit and power supplies.

 

I'm taking a break from tweaks for now, having done my share! I'm also pretty happy with my Lush USBs with JSSG 360 mods, and the SOtM Ethernet cable. In my system at least, cables make a difference, sure, but the effects are subtle, so I try to stay below a reasonable price point, beyond which I do not venture.

 

8 hours ago, toetapaudio said:

Did you compare TLS to Aqvox switch?

 

No, but it's on my wish list. There are also new switches coming from SOtM and Uptone, and I'd like to do a roundup article at some point.

[austinpop]

7 hours ago, mevdinc said:

@austinpop,
I find your reviews very informative and enjoyable. I like your comparisons, and the way you highlight the differences, taking into your own personal preferences too. Well done.

 

Thanks!

 

7 hours ago, mevdinc said:

iFI Pro iDSD seems to pack amazing set of features in a compact size with a reasonable price tag. Could be another candidate for you to consider and would be great for us readers to reed your thoughts on it.

 

Hold that thought! 

[austinpop]

31 minutes ago, analogue said:

"Denafrips" .....  luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuv dat name!!! Just rolls off da tounge!

And "Terminator" ... that was a bloody, R-rated movie. And sci-fi to boot. But the T's main CPU was designed by CyberDyne, right?  Is Denafrips = CyberDyne?

 

https://www.denafrips.com/ab

 

Hasta la vista, baby!