Article: Dutch & Dutch 8c Loudspeaker Review

[mitchco]

View full article

[PeterG]

Some great interesting stuff here, but very hard to put these into context.  What do they cost?  How do they compare to the usual suspects near that price point, such as B&W, Focal, Sonus Faber, etc?  Who should buy them?

[Hyperion]

33 minutes ago, PeterG said:

Some great interesting stuff here, but very hard to put these into context.  What do they cost?  How do they compare to the usual suspects near that price point, such as B&W, Focal, Sonus Faber, etc?  Who should buy them?

 

This is a true all-in-one system which should be compared to the likes of Kii or Grimm. The Dutch & Dutch 8C are soon to be "Roon Endpoint Ready", meaning that all you need to do is plug them into your home network (over Ethernet) running Roon on a server to enjoy music from Tidal etc. and/or stored music from a NAS or computer.

 

To build a similar system with passive components on this elevated level with such unique characteristics under €10.000 would be a challenge, if not impossible. This is a system for the serious music lover who wants accuracy and simplicity on the highest level possible.

 

The retail price for the Dutch & Dutch 8C reviewed in Europe is approx. €10.000. 

 

/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se (proud importer of Dutch & Dutch in Sweden)

 

 

[mlknez]

I talked to the US reseller that says the price is $12,500.

[firedog]

Another interesting and thorough review. I’d love to be able to hear a pair.

 

There was another comparison review of the Kiis and the 8c recently posted by a user in Australia who auditioned both in his home. His impressions were similar to yours, but his conclusion was the opposite. 

He preferred the bass of the 8c, but felt the mids and high end of the Kiis allowed him to hear detail better, especially when he sat 3-4 meters away. 

 

This could be a room related difference, or as Mitchco said, just a matter of taste. 

In any case, it is great that both speakers are on the market and give consumers a choice. Hopefully there will be more speakers of this type and maybe some that are more affordable. 

[Daverz]

Why did I have to google for the price of the speakers?  I assume the price listed at the site below, $6295, is per speaker, not per pair.

 

https://legendaryproaudio.com/product/dutch-dutch-8c/

 

Another review that's excellent on the technical issues.  It's just sad that Mitch doesn't like music (I'm joking, of course, but a bit ruefully.)

[Emlin]

Hi Mitch. How were you controlling the volume (and mute) on these? The Kii has the Control which seems very convenient. Did you try the web browser "app" for this? If so, is it adequate?

[mitchco]

4 hours ago, PeterG said:

Some great interesting stuff here, but very hard to put these into context.  What do they cost?  How do they compare to the usual suspects near that price point, such as B&W, Focal, Sonus Faber, etc?  Who should buy them?

 

Thanks. I believe you now have the cost. I did not have a cost in my region and forgot about persuing one... Oops.

 

They don't compare to the usual suspects is the point of my article. This is next level loudspeaker engineering that takes into consideration room effects, that other manufactures do not...  Amongst the other points made in my conclusion.

 

Anyone wanting real accurate sound reproduction that is verifiable with measurements, is who should look into these as serious contenders. That and if you are looking for an "all in one" system.

[mitchco]

2 hours ago, Daverz said:

Why did I have to google for the price of the speakers?  I assume the price listed at the site below, $6295, is per speaker, not per pair.

 

https://legendaryproaudio.com/product/dutch-dutch-8c/

 

Another review that's excellent on the technical issues.  It's just sad that Mitch doesn't like music (I'm joking, of course, but a bit ruefully.)

 

Re: price - see my response to PeterG...

 

Thanks, but not understanding your comment...?

[mitchco]

1 hour ago, Emlin said:

Hi Mitch. How were you controlling the volume (and mute) on these? The Kii has the Control which seems very convenient. Did you try the web browser "app" for this? If so, is it adequate?

 

Emlin, I did try the web app volume control and worked fine - no audible issues that I was able to discern. However, I am using JRiver's internal 64bit digital volume control as I spend most of my time in JRiver selecting tunes I want to listen too. Mostly listen at reference level or background music level... so don't spend much time adjusting the volume. My wife liked the Kii Controller, but I found I never used it. Old habits die hard...

[Emlin]

2 hours ago, mitchco said:

 

Emlin, I did try the web app volume control and worked fine - no audible issues that I was able to discern. However, I am using JRiver's internal 64bit digital volume control as I spend most of my time in JRiver selecting tunes I want to listen too. Mostly listen at reference level or background music level... so don't spend much time adjusting the volume. My wife liked the Kii Controller, but I found I never used it. Old habits die hard...

 

Thanks for getting back to me, but I was not so much concerned about the quality of the web app volume control, but more its usability. As the 8Cs don't have a USB input to connect a PC running JRiver (or whatever), it looks like another (expensive) box with remote control would be necessary for my needs if the app isn't up to it (as I've heard elsewhere). As good as these things seem to be, the lack of a decent interface in a domestic environment could be their Achilles heel, it seems. What are your thoughts on that? Thanks.

[asdf1000]

Hi @mitchco

 

Another wonderful review.

 

All the latest discussions I've read about the Kii3's have lately been mentioning these Dutch & Dutch speakers.

 

So to have your reviews, almost back to back, is awesome.

 

Quick question - have Dutch & Dutch indicated to you what the streaming capabilities currently are and what they are working on adding? Roon? Others?

 

Cheers!

 

 

[sixman]

Fantastic review - as you always deliver Mitcho. Enjoyed reading it!

 

Couple of questions - when you talk about positioning the speakers close to the back wall - it looks like one is actually up against a glass window. Does glass - as opposed to a traditional wall surface - effect the sound in any way?

 

Also, as well as getting rid of dac/pre/amplifier/cables etc - does this system mean you can ditch unsightly room treatments as well?

 

[fas42]

Nice to see Peter Gabriel's Security CD mentioned as a good test for Big Sound - this has been a personal favourite for 30 years ... .

[esldude]

Mitchco, I love the way you do your reviews.  I'd say this one is super, but all your articles and reviews are. 

 

Very interesting times with speakers like the Dutch&Dutch and Kii Three's around.  Hopefully the opening salvos in a barrage of such devices soon to be available.   

 

 

[mitchco]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Mitchco, I love the way you do your reviews.  I'd say this one is super, but all your articles and reviews are. 

 

Very interesting times with speakers like the Dutch&Dutch and Kii Three's around.  Hopefully the opening salvos in a barrage of such devices soon to be available.   

 

 

 

Dennis, coming from you, thank you, I really appreciate it!

 

Yes, I hope so! I feel folks are missing out on how good speakers can sound when they can be tuned to one's room and voiced for a neutral response. It really makes a big difference!

[mitchco]

@Emlin Ah, I see what you are saying and understood. I am hoping that Martijn @mensink can drop by and comment on the roadmap for the user interface. I know he was on his way to Beijing, so maybe a bit before he can comment...

 

@Em2016  Thanks! Good question. Yes, I understand Roon integration is being developed, but I am hoping like above, Martijn can join the conversation and comment on the streaming roadmap...

[mitchco]

5 hours ago, sixman said:

Fantastic review - as you always deliver Mitcho. Enjoyed reading it!

 

Couple of questions - when you talk about positioning the speakers close to the back wall - it looks like one is actually up against a glass window. Does glass - as opposed to a traditional wall surface - effect the sound in any way?

 

Also, as well as getting rid of dac/pre/amplifier/cables etc - does this system mean you can ditch unsightly room treatments as well?

 

 

Thanks! Given that the subs output 100 Hz and below to the front wall, whether it is glass or drywall will make little difference. Well, wrt room treatments, it depends. The lower the frequency you go, the less room treatments have an impact, unless you stuff the room. So really, for all intensive purposes with these speakers you don't need bass traps. 

 

Depending on how lively your room is will depend on whether you ditch the room treatments or not. In the article, I reference industry guidelines for studio control rooms and critical listening rooms, which there is a spec for decay time based on the volume of the room. Mostly it is a range.  Even with a few broadband absorbers on the back wall and heavy acoustic drapes on the front wall, my room is at the upper limit of the spec for being almost too lively, but the response is smooth across the frequency range. It's late now, but I will post the decay time of my room tomorrow.

[CJH]

Is digital input max 24/192 with internal processing at 96kHz? No mention on their site.

CJH

[PeterG]

16 hours ago, mitchco said:

They don't compare to the usual suspects is the point of my article. This is next level loudspeaker engineering that takes into consideration room effects, that other manufactures do not...  Amongst the other points made in my conclusion.

 

With all due respect, I think you've missed my point.  Whatever the technical benefits or features might be, we still need to know how good they sound, and that requires a reference to something that most of us understand

[The Computer Audiophile]

23 minutes ago, PeterG said:

 

With all due respect, I think you've missed my point.  Whatever the technical benefits or features might be, we still need to know how good they sound, and that requires a reference to something that most of us understand

Given that the room is the biggest instrument and has the largest effect on sound, how do you suggest someone start with a reference that everyone can understand?

[gcoupe]

I see that the D&D speakers actually have a fan in the base to help cool the electronics. Did this ever kick in during your testing, and did it cause any distraction/negative impact?

[christopher3393]

Thanks for the review, Mitch. Very promising. Looks like only a 2 year warranty ( https://dutchdutch.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/8c-Manual-English.pdf, p. 15. Not clear if this has to be sent to Netherlands, but looks like it. The weight involved is going to be challenging for shipping. I wonder how good their packaging is?

[PeterG]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Given that the room is the biggest instrument and has the largest effect on sound, how do you suggest someone start with a reference that everyone can understand?

 

Interesting question in two ways, starting with the "reference".  Now that you push me, I see that I do not mean reference in the literal sense--I mean that a reviewer needs to put us in the ballpark of how he is defining "good".  The answer I was looking for would be something like--"beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so you should listen for yourself, but the 8c's are good competition for other stand-mounts in the $5-10K range such as....Of course you'll need to buy an amp for those".  Virtually every professional review does this, including your own.

 

Back to your assertion that the room is the biggest instrument.  That may be the answer to the big question--maybe the 8c's are not in the big leagues in a good room, but jump to the front of the pack in a problem room?  I am not asserting that either of these things is true

 

I also do not accept the idea that these are unique in the way that matters most--i.e. there's more than one way to skin a cat.  I'd really like to know how a person might evaluate the 8c's and a headphone amp (as Mitchco has done) against a price comparable combo of amp/speakers/room correction, or just amp/speakers in a typical room.  The whole area of room correction is fascinating, important, and debatable--let's have the debate!

 

Big picture--I think CA's guest reviewers bring a welcome fresh take.  Mitchco has written a terrific piece that we never would have read elsewhere.  But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.  There are certain things that every review should include.  Price and performance against some defined competition are two of those things.
 

 

[mitchco]

7 hours ago, CJH said:

Is digital input max 24/192 with internal processing at 96kHz? No mention on their site.

CJH

 

Good quetion for Martijn @mensink 

 

2 hours ago, gcoupe said:

I see that the D&D speakers actually have a fan in the base to help cool the electronics. Did this ever kick in during your testing, and did it cause any distraction/negative impact?

 

Yes the fan kicked in, but I never heard it from the listening position. I could barely hear it with my ear right by the speaker/stand with no music playing. It is very quiet.