need help with Windows Computer purchase

[Avenging Fool]

hi

   I haven't bought a Windows Computer in over 10 years, always use Macs at home.  My MacAir from 2011 is starting to fail, however, and I am out of HD on it.

In addition, I want to use a Music Management Program for my NAS called MusiChi, which is Windows based.  Not interested in using Linux or splitting the OS of a Mac (had a bad experience with that once and won't go there again).   I also want to run the computer sound out through HDMI, into one of the HDMI inputs of my Bryston DAC-3

   So, since everyone I know uses Macs, and no one cares about playing music through them, I need some advice

1) Do I need to worry about the sound card if I intend to solely output it into the DAC?  I will never be playing this just from the computer speakers.

2) Does it matter what antiviral program I use?

3) Does the HD size matter, as long as I have enough to load the only program that I intewnd to use with it?

4) Is any particular brand bwetter as a Music server than any other (quieter fan, less bloatwear, whatever)?

 

sorry if a folder exists for this already, but I figure it is a constantly changing landscape so even if there is it might be outdated already...

[rando]

In the case of a dedicated Windows PC (or prebuilt music server) you would not use the HDMI connection.  Instead the USB would be the favored means (or any of the other digital inputs present).  Nor would you wish to have AV or a computer sound card installed.  You may find you prefer to use an audiophile add on card though. 

 

Until we have a budget and little bigger picture of your needs it is hard to point towards any solution firmly.  There are a lot of ways to skin this particular cat you may not be aware and might prefer.  This will greatly impact how you store and access music once musichi has done its job sorting through it. 

 

Just as a base example of a very simple Windows machine. 

 

Z390 motherboard + Intel i5 8400 + 16GB DDR4 RAM + fanless power supply + 128GB SSD boot drive + xTB storage drive(s).  Once built and with Windows installed as many extraneous functions and processes would be permanently turned off through software or manual means.  Then audio related software and drivers would be installed.  A very common solution is Roon running HQPlayer which handles both upsampling and DSP.  Inside of two hours you could have music playing from your library or through a streaming service.

[Ralf11]

answer no to 1,2,3

 

answer not likely to 4 (there is a non-PWM fan available to upgrade a Mac Mini, which is said to reduce radiated noise)

 

Here is a quick and easy way to do things: Buy an Intel NUC and put it far away from your DAC.  Find your electrical panel and put the DAC and rest of the HiFi system on one column of the panel; then put the computer/server on the other column.

 

Use CAT cable to connect the computer to the DAC, with a conversion if needed (a high quality ethernet 'box' is rumored to be introduced soon).

 

For more DIY and lower noise transmission to the DAC, use the Clear Fog setup discussed on here.

 

 

 

 

[Avenging Fool]

Thanks to Rando and Ralf11 for responding

 

   My budget is up to about $1500, but I am comfortable being way under budget.  I had investigated a company called Eluktroniks, which makes computers for gang nd apparently fairly stripped down and minus bloatware, but I have limited IT skills, prefer plug and play, and was frankly put off when I realized that these PCs didn't even have an OS and that I would have to load Windows.  You guys could probably do that in your sleep, but I see problems galore if I try it, and since I view Windows as an inherently buggy program (I need to use it at work), I'll forever be wondering if any problem that I have is due to some mistake that I committed in installing it.

   My daughter had a Sony VAIO a few years back that impressed me, but apparently Sony is out of that business.  It also became infected with malware and ransomware, not used to dealing with those issues on the Mac side of things.

   The Bryston has a usb input and frankly the HDMI inputs sound better.  I know that HDMI is a high jitter source, but what can I say, after extensive comparisons using my Oppo 105 and 203 and a Sony SACD player, the HDMI inputs sound better.  I will only use the usb if I can't use the HDMI inputs.

[rando]

What sounds better to you is most important.  How were you listening on the mac through HDMI, Thunderbolt adapter?  Bad USB will sound bad.  There are a number of solutions to this that all have their own problems.  Like using spdif or a separate box/add on card.  HDMI for audio only is unfortunately not a very well supported option.  Most development goes towards A/V.

 

Ralf and I covered the two most popular avenues to go down.  One concurrent with someone requiring horsepower for certain programs and the other reminiscent of the fact your phone is more powerful than a desktop from not many years past.  I stand by my assertion there is a lot of ground to cover before you could make an informed choice.  For which investing some time researching here and elsewhere would yield positive results. 

 

One hard point you will continue to butt up against is going to be computer audiophilia goes far beyond the act of installing Windows.  The physical ingenuity required to improve a system in the analog age carries over to technology.  Staying under $1500 is not the problem.  You being able to make full use of the end result could very well be.  Not to say your personal system has to require a degree to operate.  Merely that installing Windows is actually easier than cleaning up a store bought computer.  One that is designed with more compromises than we would suggest moving forward with.

[Avenging Fool]

So I currently access my NAS in 3 ways:

1) Bluesound (Node2 and Vault2) the Vault 2 connects to my Mytek Manhatten I DAC via toslink

2) Oppo 203 which connects to my Bryston DAC 3 via HDMI

3) MacAir, with Audirvana + as a music player, connected to the Bryston DAC 3 via usb

I have also experimented with with the usb outputs from the Vault2 with the Bryston (the Mytek doesn't have a usb input), trying both the Bryston usb input and the toslink input. .  The usb on the Bryston is close to the other inputs, but there is definitely a drop in SQ. In general, I am not a fan of usb inputs on DACS.

 

The HDMI inputs on the Bryston DAC3 seem to be equal to the other non usb inputs on the DAC3.

 

[rando]

OK, that makes more sense.  Mention of sound cards and HDMI audio has a high correlation with "fix my gaming computer" among new posters.  

 

Since you ignored the parts about DSD and upsampling those don't seem to be a current concern.  If buying new there is still no reason not to get something that has a six or more core processor.  In large part HP/Dell/etc stalled on 4 core and have yet to release much using current (or very soon to be released in time for the holiday season) processors.  The same holds true for Intel NUC.  The big point I'd hope to get across is you can't buy a Windows computer and expect it to be set up for audio the way you can with Apple.  

 

In any case, almost every motherboard will have HDMI that will work with your DAC.  Some may even surprise by expanding on this through USB C to HDMI. Which might prove to offer better SQ and is thus worth mentioning (despite being very oriented again towards just video or A/V applications).  Older threads here would not have bore mention of this.  

 

Sorry I cannot direct you towards an exact model of pre-configured Windows computer.  

[Avenging Fool]

56 minutes ago, rando said:

OK, that makes more sense.  Mention of sound cards and HDMI audio has a high correlation with "fix my gaming computer" among new posters.  

 

Since you ignored the parts about DSD and upsampling those don't seem to be a current concern.  If buying new there is still no reason not to get something that has a six or more core processor.  In large part HP/Dell/etc stalled on 4 core and have yet to release much using current (or very soon to be released in time for the holiday season) processors.  The same holds true for Intel NUC.  The big point I'd hope to get across is you can't buy a Windows computer and expect it to be set up for audio the way you can with Apple.  

 

In any case, almost every motherboard will have HDMI that will work with your DAC.  Some may even surprise by expanding on this through USB C to HDMI. Which might prove to offer better SQ and is thus worth mentioning (despite being very oriented again towards just video or A/V applications).  Older threads here would not have bore mention of this.  

 

Sorry I cannot direct you towards an exact model of pre-configured Windows computer.  

I don't have any DSD downloads.  I do have a large collection of SACDs and my Oppo 203 will output the DSD from them over HDMI into my Bryston DAC3, so my DSD listening experience at this time is confined to silver discs.  And thanks for putting my questions about sound cards ,etc. into a context for this site, since I am a  newbie here 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Especially with all the different pet theories expounded in this forum, it is easy to drastically overthink and overkill perfectly adequate offtheshelf solutions.  The mind is a mysterious thing, and can lead one astray at least as often as it focuses on the truth.  Audio is fertile ground for that, among the most fertile of all.

 

I just don't accept uncontrolled user testimony and anecdotes about this or that offering some major performance improvement, which abounds here and in audio in general.  If there are no careful measurements or properly done DBT tests to verify claims, then, to me, they ain't worth much, even if fanboys gang up supporting them by the millions.  A million flies on a pile of BS can't be wrong, eh?

 

So, IMHO, all you need is a PC with adequate resources, a good asynch USB DAC, preferably with galvanic isolation, decent bit perfect player software, and you are good to go.  Don't worry about cables, gizmos, reclockers, power supplies, OS optimizers,  etc., etc. unless you have seen rigorously controlled tests that support them.  If you are like me, I am not seeing them, which tells me they have got nothing other than arm waving and BS.

 

1.) No, you do not need a sound card with an external DAC.  But, an offtheshelf PC will likely have a cheap one, which you will bypass via USB, HDMI, etc.  I am perfectly happy with properly implemented, asynch USB audio.  I find HDMI to be a technical compromise, since it relies on the video clock.  Audio takes second fiddle to and inhibits audio, subjecting it to increased subtle timing issues and jitter in HDMI. 

 

2.) Antivirus programs should play no role, unless they are via settings upsetting  playback timing or latency by rechecking files already on  HD or NAS on input.  They should not, but A/V settings is where to look. I have had no problems with a number of different A/V software suites.

 

3.) Only internal/external HD or NAS total capacity matters for your intended collection.  I don't think USB sticks are a good or economical  place to store your music collection, unless it is very tiny.   Permanently attached HD storage is best.  I use a NAS for that.

 

4.) Noise is an issue if you insist on keeping the PC in the listening room.  I found a way to keep mine in an adjoining utility room, so no problem other than keeping cable lengths below 5 meters.  I also do not need to deal with more complex client/server networked configurations.  Unfortunately, prices for silent PCs rise rapidly vs. offtheshelf.  That becomes treacherous vs. budget.  But, unless and until demonstrated objectively, there is no proven sonic advantage to quiet or "audiophile" PCs, music servers, etc. other than ambient noise reduction from fans and HDs.

 

 

[Avenging Fool]

37 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Especially with all the different pet theories expounded in this forum, it is easy to drastically overthink and overkill perfectly adequate offtheshelf solutions.  The mind is a mysterious thing, and can lead one astray at least as often as it focuses on the truth.  Audio is fertile ground for that, among the most fertile of all.

 

I just don't accept uncontrolled user testimony and anecdotes about this or that offering some major performance improvement, which abounds here and in audio in general.  If there are no careful measurements or properly done DBT tests to verify claims, then, to me, they ain't worth much, even if fanboys gang up supporting them by the millions.  A million flies on a pile of BS can't be wrong, eh?

 

So, IMHO, all you need is a PC with adequate resources, a good asynch USB DAC, preferably with galvanic isolation, decent bit perfect player software, and you are good to go.  Don't worry about cables, gizmos, reclockers, power supplies, OS optimizers,  etc., etc. unless you have seen rigorously controlled tests that support them.  If you are like me, I am not seeing them, which tells me they have got nothing other than arm waving and BS.

 

1.) No, you do not need a sound card with an external DAC.  But, an offtheshelf PC will likely have a cheap one, which you will bypass via USB, HDMI, etc.  I am perfectly happy with properly implemented, asynch USB audio.  I find HDMI to be a technical compromise, since it relies on the video clock.  Audio takes second fiddle to and inhibits audio, subjecting it to increased subtle timing issues and jitter in HDMI. 

 

2.) Antivirus programs should play no role, unless they are via settings upsetting  playback timing or latency by rechecking files already on  HD or NAS on input.  They should not, but A/V settings is where to look. I have had no problems with a number of different A/V software suites.

 

3.) Only internal/external HD or NAS total capacity matters for your intended collection.  I don't think USB sticks are a good or economical  place to store your music collection, unless it is very tiny.   Permanently attached HD storage is best.  I use a NAS for that.

 

4.) Noise is an issue if you insist on keeping the PC in the listening room.  I found a way to keep mine in an adjoining utility room, so no problem other than keeping cable lengths below 5 meters.  I also do not need to deal with more complex client/server networked configurations.  Unfortunately, prices for silent PCs rise rapidly vs. offtheshelf.  That becomes treacherous vs. budget.  But, unless and until demonstrated objectively, there is no proven sonic advantage to quiet or "audiophile" PCs, music servers, etc. other than ambient noise reduction from fans and HDs.

 

 

Thanks.  I didn’t think a soundcard should matter, but when I started to ask non Audiophile friends about which Windows pc to get everyone told me I needed a good one because I was “into music”.  No one seems to understand that I intend to bypass it completely 

[Jking]

    I used an Intel mini ITX board with an external power brick.  It is basicly a laptop board that will fit in a mini ITX case.  Since the GPU is on the CPU the board came with HDMI and DP outs.  You can replace the power brick with a linear power supply that about the same size as the power brick.  That said, I've haven't used the HDMI out except for video.

 

[rando]

I have a thought if you might be willing to experiment a bit. 

Windows computers capable of running Musichi are not a rare commodity.  I'd bet you could find one free if you really tried.  If the only purpose it serves is NAS maintenance.  Anything related to SQ or audio outputs is void.  A laptop could be easily unplugged and stored when not required.

 

What I would like to suggest you try is calling up a local audio dealer with an eye towards demoing a music server.  Either in your home or taking the DAC in for an afternoon.  You may find a well implemented USB chain meets your needs, you may discover it doesn't matter and you prefer another input.  What will almost certainly happen is you will realize the simplicity you desire in this part of your system.  Not to mention tech support that might go so far as taking control of your server from offsite to configure it.  

[Avenging Fool]

@rando

 

thanks for for the reply.

Perhaps you missed it, but I currently use 3 Music Servers, Bluesound , Oppo, and my MAC Air running A plus.  I started with Bluesound and after ripping a few hundred albums transferred that to my NAS.  SQ not an issue.  I can’t find my CDs on the NAS due to the poor organization for Classical Music it’s actually easier to find CDs on my shelves so therefore I want to try Musichi

[Jim96street]

9 hours ago, Jking said:

    I used an Intel mini ITX board with an external power brick.  It is basicly a laptop board that will fit in a mini ITX case.  Since the GPU is on the CPU the board came with HDMI and DP outs.  You can replace the power brick with a linear power supply that about the same size as the power brick.  That said, I've haven't used the HDMI out except for video.

 

 

Jking,

 

What motherboard did you choose, if I may ask, and what OS are you running?  Am thinking of building a simple JRiver server with a mini ITX, and am curious!

[Avenging Fool]

I am kind of surprised at the lack of activity on this thread.  I had assumed that since this was a Computer Audio site, people would have strong opinions, HP vs Dell vs Lenovo vs whatever.

There seems to be agnosticism about this, and it’s interesting to see how many people roll their own

[beerandmusic]

34 minutes ago, Avenging Fool said:

I am kind of surprised at the lack of activity on this thread.  I had assumed that since this was a Computer Audio site, people would have strong opinions, HP vs Dell vs Lenovo vs whatever.

There seems to be agnosticism about this, and it’s interesting to see how many people roll their own

 

1.  you need a high power one if you upsample

2. brand isn't that important, where a tuned os and power supply seems to be more important.

3.  it's kind of a stale subject as more and more people are doing enet, network players, media servers, or they have already tuned their pc's...there are already hundreds of threads on the topic.

 

jmo

[Northern_Canuck]

 My advice would be to find a good PC builder and go custom route. An experienced PC builder will help you spec the right components for your needs. You will probably have better success with a custom built PC than trying to find an "off-the-shelf" solution.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

15 hours ago, Avenging Fool said:

@rando

 

thanks for for the reply.

Perhaps you missed it, but I currently use 3 Music Servers, Bluesound , Oppo, and my MAC Air running A plus.  I started with Bluesound and after ripping a few hundred albums transferred that to my NAS.  SQ not an issue.  I can’t find my CDs on the NAS due to the poor organization for Classical Music it’s actually easier to find CDs on my shelves so therefore I want to try Musichi

MusiChi is an excellent choice for classical music.  You will have to edit/enhance/modify the metadata tags to be consistent and systematic, and MusiChi will be a great help in doing that.  But, then browsing, searching and selection  should be a breeze.

[Jking]

Jim,

 

   The PC I built is uses an Intel DQ77KB and is a few years old.  The board is Thin Mini ITX form factor.   Most of Thin Minis use the same configuration as the DQ77KB.  It has an laptop wireless/blue tooth tooth adaptor installed on the board with a SSD HD for OS.  It runs Win 10 with JRivers.  

[rando]

16 hours ago, Avenging Fool said:

I am kind of surprised at the lack of activity on this thread.  I had assumed that since this was a Computer Audio site, people would have strong opinions, HP vs Dell vs Lenovo vs whatever.

There seems to be agnosticism about this, and it’s interesting to see how many people roll their own

 

At the bottom of every page there is a link to CAPS.  The newest of these machines is from 2015 and time has slowly moved on.  These were very popular solutions here and many are still in use.  You'll notice there are quite a few versions and our site owner has a pretty solid tech background.  You may also have noticed we tend to nudge people towards doing their own research and coming back with questions on the finer points instead of outright feeding them. 

 

What I hope you see is the differences between these Windows CAPS servers and off the shelf computers.  Begin to understand where they deviate and why the choices that were made are as such.  It will also introduce the third variable we haven't yet touched upon, Xeon/EPYC based systems. 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

1 hour ago, rando said:

 

At the bottom of every page there is a link to CAPS.  The newest of these machines is from 2015 and time has slowly moved on.  These were very popular solutions here and many are still in use.  You'll notice there are quite a few versions and our site owner has a pretty solid tech background.  You may also have noticed we tend to nudge people towards doing their own research and coming back with questions on the finer points instead of outright feeding them. 

 

What I hope you see is the differences between these Windows CAPS servers and off the shelf computers.  Begin to understand where they deviate and why the choices that were made are as such.  It will also introduce the third variable we haven't yet touched upon, Xeon/EPYC based systems. 

Well, yes.  This is a Computer Audiophile Forum, so a lot of people have experimented with and built PCs with carefully researched and chosen components believing that will improve the sound.  That belief may be widespread, but that does not make it so.  

 

So, immensely satisfying and challenging as that may be for some, does the OP really want to go that complex route?  I get the impression he does not.  And, at the end of the day, do custom builds do anything provable sonically to the result vs. an adequately powerful, off the shelf Dell, etc.?  I would love to see objective evidence of that.  

 

Yes, custom builds can be put in cases with nicer form factors for the listening room. And, yes, they can be made quiet in a number of ways.  All at a cost, of course.  But, other than that, what  provable, objective sonic performance advantage do they really offer?  Uncontrolled  listening anecdotes by the builder himself based on his pride of accomplishment seem likely biased and highly suspicious and unreliable to me.

 

Call me a bits is bits guy if you want, but I have seen nothing to indicate audio data  bits are anything special.  They get through just fine from most any PC and they don't require excessive bandwidth.  Noise and timing issues are pretty much vanquished these days with a decent asynch USB DAC.  So, where is the hard evidence that you need a fancy, special build and that doing so makes any discernible difference sonically?

[rando]

Nowhere in the above did you satisfy the request for a specific model of off the shelf Dell, etc. 

 

Please do so to complete your complaint against exploring options others felt were worthy of mention within the stated budget.

[Ralf11]

19 hours ago, Avenging Fool said:

I am kind of surprised at the lack of activity on this thread.  I had assumed that since this was a Computer Audio site, people would have strong opinions, HP vs Dell vs Lenovo vs whatever.

There seems to be agnosticism about this, and it’s interesting to see how many people roll their own

 

Some things matter; others don't.  Lenovo used to be, or is, a quality brand, but that will not affect SQ if you isolate the computer from the DAC.

 

Many use a raspberry pi for more DIYy approaches.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

52 minutes ago, rando said:

Nowhere in the above did you satisfy the request for a specific model of off the shelf Dell, etc. 

 

Please do so to complete your complaint against exploring options others felt were worthy of mention within the stated budget.

If you read what I said carefully, it may dawn on you I am saying it doesn't really matter much unless somebody has some objective proof to the contrary.

[rando]

If you read what I said it would be clear it matters to the new member who posited the question and continues to hold on for the exact answer I repeated a request for.