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Innuos MKII - USB Skipping with Roon


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New owner of a MKII. Running MKII>Phasure Lush>PS Direcstream Jr

 

Been running since last Fri. Started out playing some songs via USB and once Roon Radio kicked in the songs started skipping (no output, jumps from song to song at .5 sec intervals continuously).  Innuos support had this comment:

I believe this is an issue that's been encountered a couple of times, Roon does something wrong when its 'radio' feature kicks in, which is basically their autoplay function of similar/related music once you reach the end of the album you were listening. All reported instances of this have been solved by simply turning this feature off.

Shut off Roon Radio.  Go into either tracks/Album/Artist and shuffle: Same condition. Via Ethernet (Streamer port to my DAC or via network) in any mode I have no issues.

 

Have rebooted the MKII and my DAC numerous times. The only way to stop the USB skipping is to reboot the DAC.

 

When I go to bed it is running. When I wake up it's skipping. Same when I leave for work. Day after day. Consequently I cannot even burn in the unit via USB (my current preferred output). Has anyone seen this condition? If yes have you found a fix?

 

Thanks in advance

MAIN: Sonore Optical Module Deluxe/Farad Super 3 (7v) > Uptone EtherRegen/Farad Super 3(9v)/AfterDark Emperor Signature/Farad Super 3 (12v) > Innuos Zenith MKII SE (ER A) > ER (B) > Meitner MA-3 DAC > Ayre K-5xe MP Preamplifier > Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amplifier  > Vandersteen Quatro Woods

POWER: AQ Niagara 5000 > AQ (Hurricane)/Triode Wire Labs/Shunyata Python/Nordost Blue Heaven/Audience AU24 SE/Audio Sensibilities Sig Silver

CABLING: Silversmith Audio Fidelium Speaker/Sablon Pantela Reserva 2020 Lan/Ghent JSSG360 Cat 6/AQ Earth & Pegasus/Aurelis Deuland 75ohm

ISOLATION: Stillpoints/Symposium/IsoAcoustics/Herbie's/PS Audio Powerbase

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Really shocked with all the smart people on this board no one has heard of this or has any ideas

 

I am going to try to eliminate the USB cable as a source of the problem. Innuos suggests testing with a cheap USB printer cable and trying the data port

 

Ultimately, there is a break-up/disruption occurring in the USB connection. There are number of steps that can be taken in a process of elimination to identify the soruce, but the first thing i would suggest trying is a different USB lead. There's more than a few cables out there that can disrupt the 5v required to work properly, which especially becomes an issue over some longer cable lengths. 
You can also try connecting to the USB 3.0 'Backup' socket on the server, this will also work for audio and carries a higher miliamp output which might help

MAIN: Sonore Optical Module Deluxe/Farad Super 3 (7v) > Uptone EtherRegen/Farad Super 3(9v)/AfterDark Emperor Signature/Farad Super 3 (12v) > Innuos Zenith MKII SE (ER A) > ER (B) > Meitner MA-3 DAC > Ayre K-5xe MP Preamplifier > Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amplifier  > Vandersteen Quatro Woods

POWER: AQ Niagara 5000 > AQ (Hurricane)/Triode Wire Labs/Shunyata Python/Nordost Blue Heaven/Audience AU24 SE/Audio Sensibilities Sig Silver

CABLING: Silversmith Audio Fidelium Speaker/Sablon Pantela Reserva 2020 Lan/Ghent JSSG360 Cat 6/AQ Earth & Pegasus/Aurelis Deuland 75ohm

ISOLATION: Stillpoints/Symposium/IsoAcoustics/Herbie's/PS Audio Powerbase

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14 minutes ago, FrankMA said:

I am going to try to eliminate the USB cable as a source of the problem. Innuos suggests testing with a cheap USB printer cable and trying the data port

Using a spec compliant cable, which the Lush probably isn't, is always a good suggestion.

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18 minutes ago, FrankMA said:

I am going to try to eliminate the USB cable as a source of the problem. Innuos suggests testing with a cheap USB printer cable and trying the data port

 

I've tried audiophile cables in the past (not any more) - you don't know if it complies with USB 2.0 spec or not, so you may have compatibility issues, depending on source and/or USB DAC.

 

So the advice to try a spec printer cable is always good one.

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Thanks for the confirmation @mansr @Em2016 

 

Surprised about the Lush comment since so many using this server use it with success

 

What other cables are people with Innuos/PS Directstream DAC's having good luck with?

MAIN: Sonore Optical Module Deluxe/Farad Super 3 (7v) > Uptone EtherRegen/Farad Super 3(9v)/AfterDark Emperor Signature/Farad Super 3 (12v) > Innuos Zenith MKII SE (ER A) > ER (B) > Meitner MA-3 DAC > Ayre K-5xe MP Preamplifier > Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amplifier  > Vandersteen Quatro Woods

POWER: AQ Niagara 5000 > AQ (Hurricane)/Triode Wire Labs/Shunyata Python/Nordost Blue Heaven/Audience AU24 SE/Audio Sensibilities Sig Silver

CABLING: Silversmith Audio Fidelium Speaker/Sablon Pantela Reserva 2020 Lan/Ghent JSSG360 Cat 6/AQ Earth & Pegasus/Aurelis Deuland 75ohm

ISOLATION: Stillpoints/Symposium/IsoAcoustics/Herbie's/PS Audio Powerbase

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28 minutes ago, austinpop said:

No issues here with Lush cables on my setup with Zenith SE.

 

Cable compatibility with the DAC side (in this case DirectStream DAC) is just as important as the source side.

 

29 minutes ago, austinpop said:

If the latter, I’d reboot everything upstream to your ISP input. Your modem, router, and any switches in the path to the Zenith.

 

A good quick and easy thing to try (and free).

 

As is a spec compliant USB 2.0 cable like this:

 

https://www.startech.com/au/Cables/USB-2.0/USB-2.0-Cables/10-ft-High-Speed-Certified-USB-20-Cable~USB2HAB10

 

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@FrankMA,

 

As we discussed on PM I have suffered the same issue and our setups are very similar as we have Zenith, Directstream and Lush in common. 

 

FWIW I don't think it's the Lush but experimenting with another cable is definitely a good idea to try and rule it out. 

 

Meantime I've taken your advice from Innuos and disabled Roon radio. Will see if the skipping happens again and report back. 

 

Also it's definitely Roon related because I've never experienced it using the Zeniths LMS player but frequently get it with Roon. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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On 8/16/2018 at 10:13 AM, FrankMA said:

 

 

When I go to bed it is running. When I wake up it's skipping. Same when I leave for work. Day after day. Consequently I cannot even burn in the unit via USB (my current preferred output). Has anyone seen this condition? If yes have you found a fix?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Hi Frank 

 

Suggestion for trying to test whether it is Roon radio or not. 

 

Let's both disable radio and do our best to line up many long albums when we're not listening to music. That way we should be able to see if the music is still playing the next day or if skipping has kicked in. 

 

Should allow us to distinguish between it being a Radio issue or just an issue that kicks in after extended periods of playing. 

 

Will help with your burn in too. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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12 hours ago, austinpop said:

Is your music (Roon Storage location) local - ie on the Zenith, or on the network? If the latter, I’d reboot everything upstream to your ISP input. Your modem, router, and any switches in the path to the Zenith.

 

You may just have a bad cable. It does happen. 

 

My storage in on the Zenith.  Good suggestion on the rebooting of everything. Thought it wouldn't matter since it was just straight Zenith>USB>DAC

 

 

MAIN: Sonore Optical Module Deluxe/Farad Super 3 (7v) > Uptone EtherRegen/Farad Super 3(9v)/AfterDark Emperor Signature/Farad Super 3 (12v) > Innuos Zenith MKII SE (ER A) > ER (B) > Meitner MA-3 DAC > Ayre K-5xe MP Preamplifier > Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amplifier  > Vandersteen Quatro Woods

POWER: AQ Niagara 5000 > AQ (Hurricane)/Triode Wire Labs/Shunyata Python/Nordost Blue Heaven/Audience AU24 SE/Audio Sensibilities Sig Silver

CABLING: Silversmith Audio Fidelium Speaker/Sablon Pantela Reserva 2020 Lan/Ghent JSSG360 Cat 6/AQ Earth & Pegasus/Aurelis Deuland 75ohm

ISOLATION: Stillpoints/Symposium/IsoAcoustics/Herbie's/PS Audio Powerbase

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4 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi Frank 

 

Suggestion for trying to test whether it is Roon radio or not. 

 

Let's both disable radio and do our best to line up many long albums when we're not listening to music. That way we should be able to see if the music is still playing the next day or if skipping has kicked in. 

 

Should allow us to distinguish between it being a Radio issue or just an issue that kicks in after extended periods of playing. 

 

Will help with your burn in too. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

Will do Alan

 

I have tested USB with a cheap printer cable. No issues at all with Roon radio or Shuffle.

MAIN: Sonore Optical Module Deluxe/Farad Super 3 (7v) > Uptone EtherRegen/Farad Super 3(9v)/AfterDark Emperor Signature/Farad Super 3 (12v) > Innuos Zenith MKII SE (ER A) > ER (B) > Meitner MA-3 DAC > Ayre K-5xe MP Preamplifier > Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amplifier  > Vandersteen Quatro Woods

POWER: AQ Niagara 5000 > AQ (Hurricane)/Triode Wire Labs/Shunyata Python/Nordost Blue Heaven/Audience AU24 SE/Audio Sensibilities Sig Silver

CABLING: Silversmith Audio Fidelium Speaker/Sablon Pantela Reserva 2020 Lan/Ghent JSSG360 Cat 6/AQ Earth & Pegasus/Aurelis Deuland 75ohm

ISOLATION: Stillpoints/Symposium/IsoAcoustics/Herbie's/PS Audio Powerbase

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4 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

@FrankMA,

 

Also it's definitely Roon related because I've never experienced it using the Zeniths LMS player but frequently get it with Roon. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan

I also still need to test the LMS player with the Lush

 

MAIN: Sonore Optical Module Deluxe/Farad Super 3 (7v) > Uptone EtherRegen/Farad Super 3(9v)/AfterDark Emperor Signature/Farad Super 3 (12v) > Innuos Zenith MKII SE (ER A) > ER (B) > Meitner MA-3 DAC > Ayre K-5xe MP Preamplifier > Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amplifier  > Vandersteen Quatro Woods

POWER: AQ Niagara 5000 > AQ (Hurricane)/Triode Wire Labs/Shunyata Python/Nordost Blue Heaven/Audience AU24 SE/Audio Sensibilities Sig Silver

CABLING: Silversmith Audio Fidelium Speaker/Sablon Pantela Reserva 2020 Lan/Ghent JSSG360 Cat 6/AQ Earth & Pegasus/Aurelis Deuland 75ohm

ISOLATION: Stillpoints/Symposium/IsoAcoustics/Herbie's/PS Audio Powerbase

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Lush on the 2.0 dataport - no issues at all with Radio or Shuffle

 

I will disable Radio tonight and play 5-6 long albums via the 3.0 port

MAIN: Sonore Optical Module Deluxe/Farad Super 3 (7v) > Uptone EtherRegen/Farad Super 3(9v)/AfterDark Emperor Signature/Farad Super 3 (12v) > Innuos Zenith MKII SE (ER A) > ER (B) > Meitner MA-3 DAC > Ayre K-5xe MP Preamplifier > Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amplifier  > Vandersteen Quatro Woods

POWER: AQ Niagara 5000 > AQ (Hurricane)/Triode Wire Labs/Shunyata Python/Nordost Blue Heaven/Audience AU24 SE/Audio Sensibilities Sig Silver

CABLING: Silversmith Audio Fidelium Speaker/Sablon Pantela Reserva 2020 Lan/Ghent JSSG360 Cat 6/AQ Earth & Pegasus/Aurelis Deuland 75ohm

ISOLATION: Stillpoints/Symposium/IsoAcoustics/Herbie's/PS Audio Powerbase

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On 8/18/2018 at 3:57 AM, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi Frank 

 

Suggestion for trying to test whether it is Roon radio or not. 

 

Let's both disable radio and do our best to line up many long albums when we're not listening to music. That way we should be able to see if the music is still playing the next day or if skipping has kicked in. 

 

Should allow us to distinguish between it being a Radio issue or just an issue that kicks in after extended periods of playing. 

 

Will help with your burn in too. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

Hi Alan/All,

Via Lush USB DAC port - Added 5 albums to the queue last night with Radio off. All played through based on history and stopped. In the AM I turned Radio on and played a song to kick it off. Worked for about an hour before starting to skip repeatedly again

 

Again using the Backup USB port it works fine (I think that has 5v) but according to Innuos support this will not sound as good as the DAC port. Using a cheap printer cable works fine.

 

Should I be talking to Phasure to return this cable? And if yes how would I describe the issue?

MAIN: Sonore Optical Module Deluxe/Farad Super 3 (7v) > Uptone EtherRegen/Farad Super 3(9v)/AfterDark Emperor Signature/Farad Super 3 (12v) > Innuos Zenith MKII SE (ER A) > ER (B) > Meitner MA-3 DAC > Ayre K-5xe MP Preamplifier > Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amplifier  > Vandersteen Quatro Woods

POWER: AQ Niagara 5000 > AQ (Hurricane)/Triode Wire Labs/Shunyata Python/Nordost Blue Heaven/Audience AU24 SE/Audio Sensibilities Sig Silver

CABLING: Silversmith Audio Fidelium Speaker/Sablon Pantela Reserva 2020 Lan/Ghent JSSG360 Cat 6/AQ Earth & Pegasus/Aurelis Deuland 75ohm

ISOLATION: Stillpoints/Symposium/IsoAcoustics/Herbie's/PS Audio Powerbase

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1 hour ago, FrankMA said:

 

Hi Alan/All,

Via Lush USB DAC port - Added 5 albums to the queue last night with Radio off. All played through based on history and stopped. In the AM I turned Radio on and played a song to kick it off. Worked for about an hour before starting to skip repeatedly again

 

Again using the Backup USB port it works fine (I think that has 5v) but according to Innuos support this will not sound as good as the DAC port. Using a cheap printer cable works fine.

 

Should I be talking to Phasure to return this cable? And if yes how would I describe the issue?

 

I'm slightly confused by your description as you appear to be changing more than one factor at a time. 

 

Also, how do you tell from history whether the track skipped or played? 

 

My test of radio off and Roon playing all night was promising but inconclusive. No skipping occurred but I'll repeat for the next couple of days and see. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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14 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

 

I'm slightly confused by your description as you appear to be changing more than one factor at a time. 

 

Also, how do you tell from history whether the track skipped or played? 

 

Hi Alan,

I am just relaying all observations in addition to that test. 

 

The only condition where this happens is the MKII DAC USB output with the Lush.  Every other combination is fine

 

When it skips the track doesn't actually play or listed in the history. It cycles through songs at a very fast clip. So I am assuming since I see every song from the albums I played last night is in the history they probably played

MAIN: Sonore Optical Module Deluxe/Farad Super 3 (7v) > Uptone EtherRegen/Farad Super 3(9v)/AfterDark Emperor Signature/Farad Super 3 (12v) > Innuos Zenith MKII SE (ER A) > ER (B) > Meitner MA-3 DAC > Ayre K-5xe MP Preamplifier > Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amplifier  > Vandersteen Quatro Woods

POWER: AQ Niagara 5000 > AQ (Hurricane)/Triode Wire Labs/Shunyata Python/Nordost Blue Heaven/Audience AU24 SE/Audio Sensibilities Sig Silver

CABLING: Silversmith Audio Fidelium Speaker/Sablon Pantela Reserva 2020 Lan/Ghent JSSG360 Cat 6/AQ Earth & Pegasus/Aurelis Deuland 75ohm

ISOLATION: Stillpoints/Symposium/IsoAcoustics/Herbie's/PS Audio Powerbase

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1 hour ago, mansr said:

Return the Lush. It is clearly out of spec and undeserving of being called a USB cable.

 

Bit harsh there @mansr. Peter has always stated that the Lush is not to USB spec.

 

Perhaps that contributes to the musicality so many enjoy. 

 

@FrankMA - yeah in that case it does start to look like the Lush isn't working for you. The Lush being the culprit in my skipping was not the answer I was hoping for as I've just ordered two of Peter's latest cables - the Lush^2 as these incorporate the JSSG360 techniques being explored over on the Novel Way thread.

 

Up to you if you want to return the cable but perhaps check with Peter whether the Lush^2 might resolve your issue (he commented that spec is different to the Lush) to see if a trade is possible and avoids you losing all the, er, Lushness!

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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@PeterSt,

 

Hi Peter,

 

Since you're here ?

 

Not sure if you read this thread but that's two users, the Op and myself experienced the same issue with Innuos Zenith server, Lush and PS Audio Direcstream DAC where USB on Roon starts skipping tracks and then won't play again until the DAC has been switched off and on again. 

 

Curiously I don't get the same issue using the Zenith LMS player. So Roon & Lush seems the combo that struggle with this specific server and DAC. 

Any thoughts on what might be going on? Could the Lush be the source of the issue? 

 

Thanks, 

Alan 

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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@FrankMA, What you're experiencing there is 100% certainly a case of too much resistance over the end to end trajectory from sender to receiver (and back btw). Although I wouldn't care less about you returning the Lush because it does not work for you, I would care much more for a new one which 99% sure also won't work. Offering money back, also not a problem, but again it doesn't help you really.

 

I think if you look back on your trials, you can already see it is not 100% easy to blame the cable alone. Thus, it is the combination. This, btw, is not related to the specs of the cable but to how the bandwidth of the spec plays a role here and how many so-called on spec cables wouldn't work either. Easy for me to say and impossible for me to prove, but say that I tried a few, always requiring the more close to full bandwidth of the USB2 spec to begin with (because 32/768).

 

Your Lush has a length of 100cm. We provide them up to 300cm for a reason - indeed the (bandwidth of) the spec does not allow for more. So all clear there.

Problem is, nobody anywhere suffers from such a problem. No-where. Still the culprit is known - as I said, too much resistance.

 

If this doesn't happen in your target (say the DAC) then it is the source (like a PC). For the PC this is usually solvable by means of using an other USB port (I saw the reference to the high powered port but that is not helpful - I mean, the fact that it is powered is not).

Best option would be using a front port vs a back one, not knowing (or looking at) whether this is possible to begin with.

 

When the resistance is too high, eventually the back and forth "communication" for the speed control (how many USB packets must be sent per time unit) can't catch up and (it may be seen as) the buffer with data runs empty. This is also how it is data related and how your "radio" me show the exhibit, or, that just runs longer in a row than a CD (so to speak).

The less the resistance being too high, the linger it takes for the buffer runs empty (it is not really a buffer, which I of course must say with mansr around who really knows everything).

 

5 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Any thoughts on what might be going on? Could the Lush be the source of the issue? 

 

It can be part of it, yes. But 50% chance you run into the same with other USB cables, as long as they are more expensive (really so).

Obviously, when I just said that no-body has such an issue, while now two occur with a same device, we must wonder.

 

Frank, if you return it, and you ask me to send you a new one, the least what will happen is that we make a Lush^2 of it. This is already for the bad luck of just ordering the Lush^1 because the Lush^2 did not exist yet. But I rather find the culprit, and having two examples at hand, this should be doable. Plus, as I understand, Alan could be very helpful because of him experiencing the same issue but just differently.

Start with other ports if possible ?

Do you have an Uptone Regen at hand ? (or an Intona) ... just for testing ...

 

Peter

 

 

 

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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9 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Always "Radio" ?

 

I thought it was a radio issue. 

 

@FrankMA have you had the skipping issue with the radio off? 

 

@PeterSt thanks for the quick response. I sold my ISO Regen but I get the same issue as Frank despite having a TX-USBultra in the path. Lush > TX-USBultra > Sablon > Directstream.

 

Frank - might be worth holding off to see if the Lush^2 resolves skipping on my system. Might also be worth trying other cables. You're in the US, right? 

 

I have a Curious and an Audioquest carbon kicking around. I could test them to try to prove/disprove the Lush culpability. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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