Why is computer based music mostly "close but..."?

[H-Man]

I spend about 200 Euros a month on music. I have two setups most people would consider to be high quality setups. My music server contains 40k tracks. I usually subscribe to at least two streaming services. So what are my issues and what am I looking for?

 

I want a system that is easy for the whole family to use, that sounds good, that is easy to maintain and can integrate multiple streaming services and my local music files. Too much to ask for?

 

I have tried DLNA/Openhome solutions including LMS, BubblePnP, Kazoo, Plex. I have tried Roon. They all fall short in one aspect or another. 

 

The streaming services tried are Spotify, Tidal, Deezer and AM.  They also all fall short in one way or another. 

 

The closest I have been is Roon with Tidal. But Tidal has lost my interest and who knows what will happen to them? Without Tidal Roon will only play my local files at present. 

 

In 2018 this is disappointing in my view. The result is that I have decided to spend my music money on LPs and concerts again. My digital music consumption will be cheap and easy to use without concern for quality (so background music) until there is something new. 

 

Right now I am testing Sonos and Chromecast. They actually work apart from a quality perspective. But definitely good enough for background music. This has made me understand why a majority of people are willing to trade away quality requirements for usability aspects. 

 

I will remain an audiophile, just not a computer audiophile.

[Avenging Fool]

Maybe if you told us what you are lacking at present it would be easier to answer the question.  

Concerts are a different experience than recorded music.  The closest way to approximate the Concert experience at home is with Blu Rays in a surround sound system and that won’t come close.

if vinyl is a better option for you then perhaps you are missing the restricted dynamic range, surface noise, speed instability, and shorter playing times that vinyl provides, not to mention the joys of dust bunnies on the stylus, groove damage, and the joys of cleaning records

[marce]

I find computer audio quite easy, I select an album and press play....

[H-Man]

@Avenging Fool to be a bit clearer: 

 

- I have tried to solve my situation which is based on the following requirements: I have three rooms/systems I play music in (Living Room, Kitchen and Office). I want a single interface I can use to play both local and streamed music in. This means a combination of hi-res files and MP3 files and streaming services. This should be easy to use for the whole family so no changing of inputs or play modes etc. 

 

-The equipment I have is UltraRendu, re-built Mac-Mini and Brookly DAC in the Living Room, KEF LS50W in the Kitchen and Allo USBridge in Office. Along with that I have additional three MAC's, 3 PC Laptops, 2 Desktops, 3 VMware hosts and 14 TB of storage that I can use as I want and required. The whole house have an ethernet cabled network in a leaf-spine configuration with 4 ports in all rooms along with full WLAN coverage in all rooms. For wireless control I prefer IOS devices (have not found an android phone I really like yet... and yes I have tried a few) 

 

I work as a software architect and can do a fair bit of basic coding / scripting as required. 

 

To describe what is failing:

 

- Roon has a good interface but only supports Tidal integration. So when someone wants to use a different streaming service it means changing app and input.  So very close but... 

 

- I have tried Plex and Minim as DLNA servers coupled with BubbleUpnP for OpenHome endpoints using Kazoo as controller. This works for local files but integration with streaming services are a joke. With LMS I can get local files and Deezer to work, but its not very stable and also limited to Deezer. So close but...

 

I agree that vinyl has severe limitations ? that a computer based setup should be able to beat every day o the month (I won't go into a sound quality comparison between vinyl and digital as that has been done to death). However, considering the amount of work and effort that goes into setting up and maintaining a digital system, like mine, that advantage is to a large extent lost. 

 

[Whitigir]

I don’t know much about software since I have not used Windows Os for years, and it took me 2 months before I can get HQPlayer working in upsampling DSD512 from 16/44.1 after my Pc build.  I still find PC based music server to be excellent and no “close but..”

[firedog]

1 hour ago, H-Man said:

@Avenging Fool to be a bit clearer: 

 

- I have tried to solve my situation which is based on the following requirements: I have three rooms/systems I play music in (Living Room, Kitchen and Office). I want a single interface I can use to play both local and streamed music in. This means a combination of hi-res files and MP3 files and streaming services. This should be easy to use for the whole family so no changing of inputs or play modes etc. 

 

-The equipment I have is UltraRendu, re-built Mac-Mini and Brookly DAC in the Living Room, KEF LS50W in the Kitchen and Allo USBridge in Office. Along with that I have additional three MAC's, 3 PC Laptops, 2 Desktops, 3 VMware hosts and 14 TB of storage that I can use as I want and required. The whole house have an ethernet cabled network in a leaf-spine configuration with 4 ports in all rooms along with full WLAN coverage in all rooms. For wireless control I prefer IOS devices (have not found an android phone I really like yet... and yes I have tried a few) 

 

I work as a software architect and can do a fair bit of basic coding / scripting as required. 

 

To describe what is failing:

 

- Roon has a good interface but only supports Tidal integration. So when someone wants to use a different streaming service it means changing app and input.  So very close but... 

 

- I have tried Plex and Minim as DLNA servers coupled with BubbleUpnP for OpenHome endpoints using Kazoo as controller. This works for local files but integration with streaming services are a joke. With LMS I can get local files and Deezer to work, but its not very stable and also limited to Deezer. So close but...

 

 

 

LMS is not limited to Deezer. Tidal, Qobuz, and Pandora are available with plugins. So is Spotify connect. 

[H-Man]

3 minutes ago, firedog said:

LMS is not limited to Deezer. Tidal, Qobuz, and Pandora are available with plugins. So is Spotify connect. 

 

Tidal yes but I don't like it. Spotify is through Spotty so not an officially supported app and unstable . Qobuz and Pandora not available in my country... So almost... 

[wgscott]

Purchased music on hard drive ----> Computer (2012 Mac Mini, Audirvana 2.x) ----> [ USB | coax | optical | ethernet cable ] ----> DAC works perfectly.

 

Every time I trial a streaming service, I get bored with it.  There are only so many times you can listen to "Pearl Jam tunes for babies".  I decided it was best to own what I want to listen to more than once, rather than pay to rent.

 

I got rid of vinyl 25 years ago.  My CDs have been in boxes in the garage for at least the last 8 years. No need to go backward.

[beerandmusic]

2 hours ago, H-Man said:

@Avenging Fool to be a bit clearer: 

 

- I have tried to solve my situation which is based on the following requirements: I have three rooms/systems I play music in (Living Room, Kitchen and Office). I want a single interface I can use to play both local and streamed music in. This means a combination of hi-res files and MP3 files and streaming services. This should be easy to use for the whole family so no changing of inputs or play modes etc. 

 

-The equipment I have is UltraRendu, re-built Mac-Mini and Brookly DAC in the Living Room, KEF LS50W in the Kitchen and Allo USBridge in Office. Along with that I have additional three MAC's, 3 PC Laptops, 2 Desktops, 3 VMware hosts and 14 TB of storage that I can use as I want and required. The whole house have an ethernet cabled network in a leaf-spine configuration with 4 ports in all rooms along with full WLAN coverage in all rooms. For wireless control I prefer IOS devices (have not found an android phone I really like yet... and yes I have tried a few) 

 

I work as a software architect and can do a fair bit of basic coding / scripting as required. 

 

To describe what is failing:

 

- Roon has a good interface but only supports Tidal integration. So when someone wants to use a different streaming service it means changing app and input.  So very close but... 

 

- I have tried Plex and Minim as DLNA servers coupled with BubbleUpnP for OpenHome endpoints using Kazoo as controller. This works for local files but integration with streaming services are a joke. With LMS I can get local files and Deezer to work, but its not very stable and also limited to Deezer. So close but...

 

I agree that vinyl has severe limitations ? that a computer based setup should be able to beat every day o the month (I won't go into a sound quality comparison between vinyl and digital as that has been done to death). However, considering the amount of work and effort that goes into setting up and maintaining a digital system, like mine, that advantage is to a large extent lost. 

 

if you want easy, get heos and alexa

 

you can simply say "play artist in front room", "play genre in kitchen", play album in bedroom, turn volume up in bedroom, turn off music in kitchen, etc...you get the idea....

 

you can stream both local and services and even radio stations....e.g. simply say "shuffle my local playlist in kitchen", play kove radio in bedroom, shuffle jazz from spotify in frontroom....

 

it really cannot get any easier than that

 

ND8006 will do it....you will get snobs that say marantz dac is crap, but they don't know what they are talking about.  It has usb isolation, but i stream anyway....it also allows you to turn off functions not being used to minimize noise even further.  It also supports native dsd.  I have tried dacs up to 2K and none have been any better that this...equal but not better...sounds superb with my mcintosh amp and b&w speakers.

[plissken]

5 hours ago, H-Man said:

I spend about 200 Euros a month on music. I have two setups most people would consider to be high quality setups. My music server contains 40k tracks. I usually subscribe to at least two streaming services. So what are my issues and what am I looking for?

 

I want a system that is easy for the whole family to use, that sounds good, that is easy to maintain and can integrate multiple streaming services and my local music files. Too much to ask for?

 

I have tried DLNA/Openhome solutions including LMS, BubblePnP, Kazoo, Plex. I have tried Roon. They all fall short in one aspect or another. 

 

The streaming services tried are Spotify, Tidal, Deezer and AM.  They also all fall short in one way or another. 

 

The closest I have been is Roon with Tidal. But Tidal has lost my interest and who knows what will happen to them? Without Tidal Roon will only play my local files at present. 

 

In 2018 this is disappointing in my view. The result is that I have decided to spend my music money on LPs and concerts again. My digital music consumption will be cheap and easy to use without concern for quality (so background music) until there is something new. 

 

Right now I am testing Sonos and Chromecast. They actually work apart from a quality perspective. But definitely good enough for background music. This has made me understand why a majority of people are willing to trade away quality requirements for usability aspects. 

 

I will remain an audiophile, just not a computer audiophile.

 

For my Wife her phone, a BT receiver and Amazon Music has been about as good as it can get for ease of use for the non-audiophile. 

 

If the perfect solution was going to exist it would have already manifested after all these years. There are simply too many ways people want to personally consume audio that the way you want and they way I want are two different ways and software devs, well there aren't enough of them to make 400 million custom programs (I'm jesting mostly).  

[H-Man]

3 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

if you want easy, get heos and alexa

 

 

I will look into this. It is something I have not looked at. 

[H-Man]

3 hours ago, plissken said:

 

If the perfect solution was going to exist it would have already manifested after all these years. There are simply too many ways people want to personally consume audio that the way you want and they way I want are two different ways and software devs, well there aren't enough of them to make 400 million custom programs (I'm jesting mostly).  

 

But in my opinion this is largely because of a lack of standards that the various vendors agree on. If the vendors agreed on API interface standards a lot of this could be solved. One could argue that there is no driver for the vendors to agree on standards but I think that this is our own fault as we keep buying their "close but..." products... 

[Albrecht]

8 hours ago, H-Man said:

I spend about 200 Euros a month on music. I have two setups most people would consider to be high quality setups. My music server contains 40k tracks. I usually subscribe to at least two streaming services. So what are my issues and what am I looking for?

 

I want a system that is easy for the whole family to use, that sounds good, that is easy to maintain and can integrate multiple streaming services and my local music files. Too much to ask for?

 

I have tried DLNA/Openhome solutions including LMS, BubblePnP, Kazoo, Plex. I have tried Roon. They all fall short in one aspect or another. 

 

The streaming services tried are Spotify, Tidal, Deezer and AM.  They also all fall short in one way or another. 

 

The closest I have been is Roon with Tidal. But Tidal has lost my interest and who knows what will happen to them? Without Tidal Roon will only play my local files at present. 

 

In 2018 this is disappointing in my view. The result is that I have decided to spend my music money on LPs and concerts again. My digital music consumption will be cheap and easy to use without concern for quality (so background music) until there is something new. 

 

Right now I am testing Sonos and Chromecast. They actually work apart from a quality perspective. But definitely good enough for background music. This has made me understand why a majority of people are willing to trade away quality requirements for usability aspects. 

 

I will remain an audiophile, just not a computer audiophile.

Hi,

I hear your point. You didn't list the rest of your system so I am not sure what hardware you have. The most important part of digital audio playback is still hardware.

I too think that Tidal sucks. It's poised to become the Netflix of streaming, and has very little music that I like, and the variety and amount of available music is only going to go down....

IMO, - one still has to burn CDs to digital files, create and maintain a database on a NAS/Computer repository in order to achieve the balance between the music that the whole family likes, as well as ease of use.

[plissken]

1 minute ago, H-Man said:

 

But in my opinion this is largely because of a lack of standards that the various vendors agree on. If the vendors agreed on API interface standards a lot of this cold be solved. One could argue that there is no driver for the vendors to agree on standards but I think that this is our own fault as we keep buying their "close but..." products... 

 

I'm a software dev. Trust me it's not a standards based issue. Everyone wants what they want, the way the want, it at the price they want it (usually free for most ? ).

 

I've had weeks where its 20 calls and 20 people wanting something that lines 100% with the way they do business.

[Albrecht]

6 hours ago, H-Man said:

@Avenging Fool to be a bit clearer: 

 

- I have tried to solve my situation which is based on the following requirements: I have three rooms/systems I play music in (Living Room, Kitchen and Office). I want a single interface I can use to play both local and streamed music in. This means a combination of hi-res files and MP3 files and streaming services. This should be easy to use for the whole family so no changing of inputs or play modes etc. 

 

-The equipment I have is UltraRendu, re-built Mac-Mini and Brookly DAC in the Living Room, KEF LS50W in the Kitchen and Allo USBridge in Office. Along with that I have additional three MAC's, 3 PC Laptops, 2 Desktops, 3 VMware hosts and 14 TB of storage that I can use as I want and required. The whole house have an ethernet cabled network in a leaf-spine configuration with 4 ports in all rooms along with full WLAN coverage in all rooms. For wireless control I prefer IOS devices (have not found an android phone I really like yet... and yes I have tried a few) 

 

I work as a software architect and can do a fair bit of basic coding / scripting as required. 

 

To describe what is failing:

 

- Roon has a good interface but only supports Tidal integration. So when someone wants to use a different streaming service it means changing app and input.  So very close but... 

 

- I have tried Plex and Minim as DLNA servers coupled with BubbleUpnP for OpenHome endpoints using Kazoo as controller. This works for local files but integration with streaming services are a joke. With LMS I can get local files and Deezer to work, but its not very stable and also limited to Deezer. So close but...

 

I agree that vinyl has severe limitations ? that a computer based setup should be able to beat every day o the month (I won't go into a sound quality comparison between vinyl and digital as that has been done to death). However, considering the amount of work and effort that goes into setting up and maintaining a digital system, like mine, that advantage is to a large extent lost. 

 

You may be able to disregard some of my response to your OP based on your post defining your digital hardware: but were you playing CDs previously? What worked for CDs that doesn't for digital file playback?

A couple of things......

Does the Mac Mini run Roon Server? Is the Mac Mini in the same power circuit as the Sonore?  What power supply are you running with the Sonore? are you going USB into the Brooklyn Dac?

 

[NOMBEDES]

Download music files or rip CDs to a server.  Innous, Nain, etc.  (Good quality = good sound)

Ignore streaming services until 2030 or so when they get their "stuff" together.  Why pay a subscription fee for something you don't enjoy?   Or, worse, pay a lifetime up front fee to a service that may go bankrupt at any time.  

[H-Man]

1 hour ago, Albrecht said:

You may be able to disregard some of my response to your OP based on your post defining your digital hardware: but were you playing CDs previously? What worked for CDs that doesn't for digital file playback?

A couple of things......

Does the Mac Mini run Roon Server? Is the Mac Mini in the same power circuit as the Sonore?  What power supply are you running with the Sonore? are you going USB into the Brooklyn Dac?

 

When using Roon or DLNA/OpenHome the SQ is good, no complaints. It is usability/flexibility with these solutions that are an issue. To the point that i am the only one in the family that can use the system. This should not be the case in 2018. This is a similar situation to 10 years ago, there should have been more progress than this by now.  

[Albrecht]

9 minutes ago, H-Man said:

When using Roon or DLNA/OpenHome the SQ is good, no complaints. It is usability/flexibility with these solutions that are an issue. To the point that i am the only one in the family that can use the system. This should not be the case in 2018. This is a similar situation to 10 years ago, there should have been more progress than this by now.  

Hi,

Apologies for not understanding that you were not speaking of Sound Quality.

I find that my favorite program to use is LMS, and its logitech IOs interface. This is incompatible with the latest IOs so I keep an old iPAD running the remote app. It is sooo much easier to use and one can clearly pick from a list of Artists first then albums.

i have iPeng on my phone and it's so much more difficult to use. I also hated Roon, not only because of it's interface, - but the fact that it played mucky-muck with my already clean and clear DB. And, - because Roon is so closely linked to Tidal, - (which i really hate).

BubbleUpnP running directly on the NAS with MPDluxe yielded slightly better sound quality than LMS or Roon, - but the remote IF was more difficult and less clear to use.

I still think that the best way to go is to use LMS, - IMO logitech iOS remote is much more user friendly, and LMS has far less limitations than the the others with no loss in SQ.

Cheers,

[sandston]

I couldn't agree more. I feel if Roon allowed other streaming services to go through there interface it would go along way to becoming an all in one solution. I don't need Roon to give me more info about the music I'm listening to on SoundCloud for instance. A simple virtual soundcard implementation would simplify my whole listening environment. 

[Avenging Fool]

@H-Man

 

  Bluesound Node2.  Each unit runs about $500 American and I think that you would need 3.  It will be able to recognize all of your NAS and PCs and and provides for every streaming service except maybe Apple.  It plays Hi Rez and provides acontrol app that runs on iOS and Android.  It does MQA.  I'm not sure about Roon--if that is a priority I strongly advise purchasing Roon's own Renderer (Nucleus) although I am not sure if Roon supports streaming services other than Tidal.

[marce]

Squeezeboxes in every room...

[adamdea]

22 hours ago, H-Man said:

 

Tidal yes but I don't like it. Spotify is through Spotty so not an officially supported app and unstable . Qobuz and Pandora not available in my country... So almost... 

I have no idea what you mean about spotty. Not officially supported by whom? It works just fine for most folk

 

[GUTB]

My own digital system has hit a brick wall (no pun intended) too.

 

I put a lot of effort into building a high end digital audio server. While I have made huge strides in eliminating the quality issues with digital, after upgrading my analog chain earlier this year it crushed my digital in terms of sound quality. Michael Fremer says it’s the sense of "reality" that vinyl has over digital. In my view it seems that vinyl has a much better sense of dynamic performance, like looking at a scene through a large picture window as opposed to a slit. So now I’m at a impasse with my digital — if the SQ gap can be bridged, how? If it can’t than I have no choice but to abandon it.

 

The problem is that most of the posters here have no idea what high end audio sounds like. If you have no experience aside from some laptop  running through some consumer grade system, than upgrading to a real DAC and good music sever/streamer would seem like a huge improvement — and it IS a huge improvement, but you still don’t know what high end audio sounds like. If you don’t know what high end audio sounds like, you can’t offer advice on reaching it; but since you have no frame of reference for high end audio you think you’ve already arrived.

[PeterSt]

On 8/16/2018 at 4:04 PM, wgscott said:

Every time I trial a streaming service, I get bored with it.  There are only so many times you can listen to "Pearl Jam tunes for babies".

 

OffTopic, I guess ...

 

Bill, would you care to elaborate on the psychology how using a streaming service (for trials) leads to playing Pearl Jam over and over ?

I just like to learn something I most probably feel myself but most certainly can't grasp.

Btw, I use Tidal but in offline mode (so to speak) and don't experience the problem. But at obtaining it, I seem to have a similar sensation.

 

Thanks.

[ChrisG]

On 8/16/2018 at 1:09 PM, sandston said:

I couldn't agree more. I feel if Roon allowed other streaming services to go through there interface it would go along way to becoming an all in one solution. I don't need Roon to give me more info about the music I'm listening to on SoundCloud for instance. A simple virtual soundcard implementation would simplify my whole listening environment. 

As I understand it, the fact that Tidal is the only streaming service on Roon isn't because Roon doesn't allow it. The issue is these other streaming services don't want to do the integration with Roon that Tidal did, which allows each users personal music collection and Tidal music collection to be a seamless collection.