Thunderbolt DAC input?

[look&listen]

32 minutes ago, jabbr said:

the long and thin ground line

Also increased fragility & failure rate

 

[asdf1000]

20 minutes ago, look&listen said:

Also increased fragility & failure rate

 

 

Mine has been working for 2 years but I did note earlier, many people have had reliability issues with the Corning optical USB cables.

 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Is the Thunderbolt interface easier to isolate noise from a powerful computer, than USB? 

 

Ground noise, power line noise etc? The common things discussed/tackled with isolating USB inputs of DACs?

 

So even though it has lower latency and better support for high channel counts at high sample rates, does Thunderbolt  still face those same electrical noise isolation challenges as USB?

 

I'd say it is not any different from USB in terms of isolation. So for noise isolation, Ethernet in it's copper and optical flavors is better choice.

 

[PeterSt]

• Auto-regenerative shielding
• Covariant shield
• Defense field
• Immersive shielding
• Metaphasic shield
• Metaphysic shield
• Multi-adaptive shield
• Multi-spatial force field
• Multi-spectrum shielding
• Multiphasic shield
• Paratrinic shield
• Refractive shield
• Regenerative shield
• Structural integrity shield
• Temporal shield
• Unimatrix shield

[mansr]

Does a temporal shield protect against temporal blur?

[Panelhead]

7 hours ago, jabbr said:

Actually the Thunderbolt cable is, I believe, purely fiberoptic in the middle and each end is separately powered (the transceivers)

 

One thought at the time (I have one also) is that the resistance along the long and thin ground line, reduced ground flow and hence noise.

 

  The original version was fiber. The cables sold at the Apple store and on Amazon are copper. The transceivers are still there but not the optical converters. 

[Panelhead]

  This discussion is costing me money. After reading this post and the galvanic isolation from USB extenders thread I took action.

  Ordered a 10 meter Corning Thunderbolt cable to connect the Mac Mini to the Clarett 4Pre. 

  This should offer two benefits. The two are separated about three inches now sitting in the equipment rack.  Using a 0.5 meter cable. The fiber TB cable will allow moving the computer to my desk. So about 12’ between the two components. 

  The optical connection should isolate the computer hash from the DAC. This seems to work great for USB connections. Should have benefits for a Thunderbolt connected system also. 

  I was happy with the Apple cable before reading this thread.

[jabbr]

Yeah interesting that the original Thunderbolt was "LightPeak" and then yada yada announcements and the photonics group at Intel essentially dropped Thunderbolt but just released a 100 Gbe version of this: https://www.servethehome.com/marvell-25gbe-nvmeof-adapter-prefaces-a-super-cool-future/ in two versions, one of which multiplexes 4 x 25 Gbe light signals into one fiber ...

 

in any case perhaps thunderbolt will remain a pro interface where a higher level of performance is warranted e.g. AV workstations, multitrack recording etc.

[Panelhead]

  Well my 32 ft Thunderbolt came yesterday. It allowed moving the Mac Mini across the room. Instead of the Mini almost touching the Clarett 4Pre there is 12’ of space. 

  When first hooked up the Thunderbolt input did not light up. 

  Cycled power to both units and still nothing, plugged and unplugged and unplugged a couple times.

  As I was thinking of returning for a refund the dac recognized the input. TB light came on and has stayed on.

  No the bad news. Instead of cleaner and warmer the sound quality is worse than the 0.5 meter Apple branded TB cable. 

  The sound is more clinical and mechanical.

  Less warmth. Maybe having either the dac being close to Mini or the computer noise is euphoric coloration. 

  Going to give it a days and turn it around after a little burn in. Maybe it is directional.

  Hoped to hear a major SQ improvement. Not yet.

[Panelhead]

  I can write this experiment off as a high potential failure. The 10 meter Corning Thunderbolt became erratic. And finally quit working entirely. Lasted a grand total of maybe 8 hours. 

 This may explain partially why there are no TB 1 and TB 2 fiber cables in production. I had researched and seen many failed after heavy  server duty for a year. I expected many years sending music to a dac. 

 The sound quality definitely was worse than a copper cable. May be it was never working properly. 

  Moved the Mac Mini back to the equipment rack and the sound quality improved dramatically. 

  Another windmill defeated. 

[look&listen]

On September 5, 2018 at 12:11 AM, jabbr said:

One thought at the time (I have one also) is that the resistance along the long and thin ground line, reduced ground flow and hence noise.

Thought to take to task about 'ground flow' and not 'current flow', since recent posts about usage of wrong words for 'current. But decide not to do so  

 

On September 5, 2018 at 12:11 AM, jabbr said:

Actually the Thunderbolt cable is, I believe, purely fiberoptic in the middle and each end is separately powered (the transceivers)

Think TB cables available with copper or fiberoptic.  (maybe depend on version?)

[Panelhead]

  Received a refund and ordered another 10 meter cable. This time all the system was left in place and just enough cable was unspooled to connect Mini to Clarett.  Works perfectly. 

  I suspect this Corning cables are damaged by "hot swapping" during use. First did not recognize, must have hot plugged each end five times before TB light came on the dac. 

  It never sounded right. I have to wait to give this new cable a good run in, but at low volume seems fine.

  Both the Corning USB and Thunderbolt cables are listed as "hot swappable" in spec sheet. I suspect this is a cable killer over time. 

  Or maybe "hot swappable" is not the same as hot plugging a cable.

Either way I think my actions damaged the first cable, and maybe is responsible for many of the early failures seen on this family of cables.

  I am going to let it run overnight to verify reliability                       before a serious listening session. No need if it dies in 8 hours again.

[Panelhead]

  Well, I have listened to a proper operating TB optical cable and a copper version. They do not sound the same. 

  The copper Thunderbolt is softer sounding. There is a more analog sound. Notes flow together. Much more musical.

  The optical cable is much more brash and dynamic. I would first say distorted. But listening reveals there are individual notes. Listened to a recording with what sounds like a nylon strung guitar. The attach and pluck emerges from a deeper silence. The notes explode from a deep black. Individual notes are portrayed where I hear flow with a copper cable.

  I have now moved the computer back to a spot where only the Corning cable will connect. I swapped back and forth three times. First round the Apple cable was preferred, second was a draw. The last comparison had me preferring the optical fiber. 

  The revealing nature I hear is not as pleasant. But is closer to what was I think was recorded.

  Do not know if the users of the Corning USB cables hear the same deeper silences and resolution as the Thunderbolt cable.

  One item I noticed is the connectors get warm. Not hot, but warm. After being powered for only a hour. The data rate is peanuts for a 10 Gbit interface. All files are are played at 192/24. This heat generated in the connectors may contribute to the short life span of the Corning cables. 

  

[barrows]

On 9/26/2018 at 4:48 PM, Panelhead said:

  Well, I have listened to a proper operating TB optical cable and a copper version. They do not sound the same. 

  The copper Thunderbolt is softer sounding. There is a more analog sound. Notes flow together. Much more musical.

  The optical cable is much more brash and dynamic. I would first say distorted. But listening reveals there are individual notes. Listened to a recording with what sounds like a nylon strung guitar. The attach and pluck emerges from a deeper silence. The notes explode from a deep black. Individual notes are portrayed where I hear flow with a copper cable.

  I have now moved the computer back to a spot where only the Corning cable will connect. I swapped back and forth three times. First round the Apple cable was preferred, second was a draw. The last comparison had me preferring the optical fiber. 

  The revealing nature I hear is not as pleasant. But is closer to what was I think was recorded.

  Do not know if the users of the Corning USB cables hear the same deeper silences and resolution as the Thunderbolt cable.

  One item I noticed is the connectors get warm. Not hot, but warm. After being powered for only a hour. The data rate is peanuts for a 10 Gbit interface. All files are are played at 192/24. This heat generated in the connectors may contribute to the short life span of the Corning cables. 

  

Sounds to me like you are experiencing higher resolution playback with the optical cable, and, thank you for your frank and sober reporting of your findings.  It is not uncommon, when a system tuned to sound "good" or "right" with lower resolution, that when the resolution is raised, it sounds "wrong", or perhaps too incisive, or as if transients are too sharp.  Sometimes all that is required is to get used to the new sound, or sometimes the new sound is really tonally off a bit, and requires some system tuning (often something as simple as adjusting speaker toe in) to regain "proper" or more "pleasant" tonal representation.  If one can get this right, one can have the higher resolution, along with an accurate/pleasing tonal balance.  In some cases, higher resolution may reveal system problems which need to be addressed at the component level as well (synergy problems, etc). 

[Panelhead]

12 hours ago, barrows said:

Sounds to me like you are experiencing higher resolution playback with the optical cable, and, thank you for your frank and sober reporting of your findings.  It is not uncommon, when a system tuned to sound "good" or "right" with lower resolution, that when the resolution is raised, it sounds "wrong", or perhaps too incisive, or as if transients are too sharp.  Sometimes all that is required is to get used to the new sound, or sometimes the new sound is really tonally off a bit, and requires some system tuning (often something as simple as adjusting speaker toe in) to regain "proper" or more "pleasant" tonal representation.  If one can get this right, one can have the higher resolution, along with an accurate/pleasing tonal balance.  In some cases, higher resolution may reveal system problems which need to be addressed at the component level as well (synergy problems, etc). 

  That is exactly what I am thinking. Suspect the optical Thunderbolt cable(still working) is exposing an issue elsewhere. To find the gremlin a run through the rest of the system is on going. 

  Building a new amp, almost finished. Several changes, may pay dividends.

  Wondered about my dac. It is a cheap pro unit. But has four channel monitor output and Thunderbolt which is unique from my searching. Have done some decoupling work, and replaced all the JRC5532 opamps with OPA2604. I purchased a stock unit to see and from limited use, the modified unit sounds better. So this may be my next project after the amp is finished.

  I think my analog cabling are fine. 

  That only leaves the Klipsch La Scala 70th Anniversary speakers. People may laugh, but these are really nice sounding speakers, but revealing too. The latest generation of Klipsch is a big improvement over the earlier versions.

  I would hate to think the issue is I listen to poorly recoded music.

  

[jabbr]

I've been using a new MacBook Pro 2018 with thunderbolt and USB-C plugs using the same connector i.e. the laptop senses whether its a Thunderbolt 3 or USB C device. Its a great form factor and is undoubtedly going to drive adoption. I think we are going to be seeing external Thunderbolt/USB-C everything in the next few years.

[Panelhead]

  I have not seen TB3 or USB-C optical cables. Maybe Corning has given up. 

  Reliability has been substandard. I think my fist cable might have died from being hot swapped. They list them as hot pluggable. I now have two working Corning TB cables and have not plugged  or unplugged them into a powered unit. Will see if they last.