Article: Live Rock For The Audiophile

[jabbr]

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[bbosler]

Glad you enjoyed the shows but I am done with it. I used to love to go to concerts. My first was Led Zeppelin in 1970 and have been to too many since to count. The real Dead a few times, Led Zeppelin twice, Yes, Steve Miller, David Bowie, Kansas, Bob Seger, the real Allman Brothers, Bob Dylan, America, Seals and Croft, Kenny Loggins, Dave Mason, and probably 30 others, 

 

My recent experiences though have made me rethink the whole thing and I doubt I will ever go again. Why? Deaf sound engineers who turn up the volume so loud it makes your ears ring and distorts the sound so much it is basically unlistenable. I recently saw Tedeschi Trucks (who I love) in a great hall but left halfway through because it was ear bleeding loud. I saw John Hiatt at the Ryman and it was so loud and distorted you couldn't understand any of what he sang or said. The worst was an "acoustic evening" with John Hiatt and Lyle Lovett. At the same venue as Tedeschi Trucks where our local symphony plays, it was the 2 of them on stage sitting and playing acoustic guitars. They could have played un-amplified and filled the hall with sound, but again, they were miked and it was so loud and distorted you couldn't understand what they were saying. I could go on. The only recent exception was when I saw Glenn Campbell on his farewell tour at the Ryman and the sound was excellent. I hate to be Debbie Downer, and I used to say "if it is too loud you are too old" and maybe I am, but I will no longer spend the kind of money they charge these days for a garbled mess.

 

 

 

[wgscott]

That was one of the good things about the original Grateful Dead (and also now Dead & Co).  It was never so loud that you couldn't have a conversation.  I didn't see Dead & Co. this year, but did the previous two years, and the volume level was quite moderate.  You can get high res recordings of any of the concerts at nugs.net (as well as mqa, mp3, redbook, etc), and the sound quality is quite good.  As for the concerts themselves, it definitely isn't the same experience, but it an experience that stands on its own merit.  I think the long-term goal is to keep the tradition going long into the future, when all of the original protagonists are .... dead.

[jabbr]

57 minutes ago, bbosler said:

I used to say "if it is too loud you are too old" and maybe I am, but I will no longer spend the kind of money they charge these days for a garbled mess.

Let me reemphasize — get as close to front and center of the stage — it’s NOT louder, you avoid the huge speaker arrays and the sound is much cleaner. When you are off to the side or much farther back the sound is both louder and garbled!

[jcbenten]

Radiohead...ACL 2016 Week 2...Awesome...one of the best shows ever I have seen at ACL (attended 10+ times).  A good live show is better than any cd/record.

 

This year...Metallica...Paul McCartney...The National

 

Thanks for posting.

[mitchco]

Great article @jabbr I love rock concerts, but as you say, the trick is to get in front of the stage. I was once a FOH mixer for a number of acts in Western Canada and always used a calibrated sound level meter to keep it around 95 dB SPL at the mixing console back in the crowd. That was a good level, sounded clean and punchy, did not require ear plugs - no ear ringing the next day. 

 

But that was years ago and now the trend is for ridiculous volumes. I saw one of my favourite alt bands at an awesome venue in Vancouver The SPL back in the room was over 111 dB SPL - insane. Must wear ear plugs. However, moving to the front of the stage I measured around 95 dB SPL  and sounded great and for an hour or two concert, don't need ear plugs.

 

I agree completely on a multi-amped home system with one amp per speaker to reproduce complex rock. That's what I have in my listening room right now.

 

Again awesome article!

[jabbr]

50 minutes ago, mitchco said:

I agree completely on a multi-amped home system with one amp per speaker to reproduce complex rock. That's what I have in my listening room right now.

Treasure trove of info! Thanks ?

[Ralf11]

Thanks for the article!

 

I've lost my interest for giant stadiums.  I do have fond memories of seeing Jorma Kaukonen at a local venue holding a couple hundred people a few years ago.  You could walk up to the stage an shake hands in between breaks.  Similar experiences in NoLa clubs.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I've lost my interest for giant stadiums.  I do have fond memories of seeing Jorma Kaukonen at a local venue holding a couple hundred people a few years ago.  You could walk up to the stage an shake hands in between breaks.  Similar experiences in NoLa clubs.

No doubt! Small venues are great.

[Ralf11]

BTW, we are having an extended debate in the local paper on the... ah... propriety of having a youngster like John Mayer replace Jerry.  Also, there have been numerous concerns expressed re the -luxury- shows in California recently.

 

maybe Dr. 40S will post his attendance impressions...

 

[wgscott]

Who is Dr. 40S?

[Ralf11]

it was a ribosomal joke

 

 

or a sub-unit thereof...

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

BTW, we are having an extended debate in the local paper on the... ah... propriety of having a youngster like John Mayer replace Jerry.  Also, there have been numerous concerns expressed re the -luxury- shows in California recently.

 

maybe Dr. 40S will post his attendance impressions...

 

I don't think Dr. Palade was in attendance ... oh you mean his young replacement ?Please!!

 

John Mayer did a great job ... not Jerry of course but that's fine. He played well as a band member, no grandstanding. He didn't play his own material. Jerry has been gone for a long time and no one can replace him. The show was great. The vibe was great. The music was great. Really fun time. Of course it brings back old memories -- but John is a terrific and in my mind welcome addition as a musician.

 

California concerns?

[wgscott]

38 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

it was a ribosomal joke

 

 

or a sub-unit thereof...

 

Euk-fcks.

[Ralf11]

3 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

California concerns?

 

some are saying the high prices and luxo-feel is "wrong"

 

I didn't go but a friend did and had a great time (OTOH, he lives in Mini-soda now)

 

I saw a nice Jaguar heading to a Dead Show in the '70s so am used to the ... um... non-VW Bus crowd

 

I should add that our local paper reflects the town - it is like the parking lot outside a Dead show 24-7-365

[bbosler]

21 hours ago, jabbr said:

Let me reemphasize — get as close to front and center of the stage — it’s NOT louder, you avoid the huge speaker arrays and the sound is much cleaner. When you are off to the side or much farther back the sound is both louder and garbled!

 

For all the shows I mentioned we were in the first few rows. Relatively small venues, concert halls maybe 1500 seats, and it was ear bleeding loud. I got up and walked around the hall and went up to the balcony. Everywhere I went it was ear bleeding loud. It's not a case of where you can get in between the banks of speakers like at an outdoor venue. 

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, bbosler said:

 

For all the shows I mentioned we were in the first few rows. Relatively small venues, concert halls maybe 1500 seats, and it was ear bleeding loud. I got up and walked around the hall and went up to the balcony. Everywhere I went it was ear bleeding loud. It's not a case of where you can get in between the banks of speakers like at an outdoor venue. 

 

Thats too bad!

 

No doubt there are venues with really bad acoustics — likewise there are bad sound engineers — perhaps at these small venues they can’t afford good sound engineers or equipment?

 

Grateful Dead has a really long history of using really great sound equipment — it’s legendary.

 

Radiohead likewise uses surprisingly sophisticated sound — an entirely different level of complexity that’s amazing to see in real life.

 

I was really disappointed with Yes whose music is complex and whose recording I use to stress test audio systems. The venue was smaller eg 3K or so vs 16-20K for the others. Perhaps they couldn’t afford to bring along their own equipment? 

 

In in any case, sure it’s not only where you sit but the quality of the sound engineer & equipment.

[umiami91]

I saw Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit play last year at The Rose Music Theater north of Dayton, OH, and the sound was really outstanding.  Not too loud, good and clear.  Obviously, the performance was excellent, at least from my perspective.  Venues that size are just about perfect - not too big, not too small.  I've seen all sorts of bands from stadium size to small intimate places, and, for me, places like Rose are about the right amount of everything. 

 

Wolf Trap in greater DC is probably the best place to enjoy a band show IMHO - I've seen Wilco there a couple times as well as Cowboy Junkies, and they have a house sound that is subtle enough for the quiet that still has the ability to bite when the music calls for it.  When the government pays to maintain the venue, you'll find that it sounds just stellar.

[Johnseye]

@jabbr we have similar musical tastes.  I saw the first show of the Radiohead tour this year at the United Center in Chicago.  Likewise I caught Dead and Co for 2 nights at Alpine Valley and 2 nights in Boulder.  I had some friends who went to Riverbend, but I couldn't make it this year.  Yes tempted me, but with the absence of Jon Anderson I hesitate.

 

It's nice to read a review with some audio analysis.  I'm sure you're aware of the vast amount of info written about the Dead's audio exploration over the years.  From what Bear, Betty and other engineers did in the early years to Dan Healy and then John Cutler.  There were other engineers involved as well and some of them pioneered live music presentation.

 

I only started seeing the Dead in '88 but dove in going on tour a few times.  During that time I got to know some folks and began seeding shows to etree, hosting a server.  That changed when bit torrent came out with bt.etree.  The taping community has always been strong with the Dead, inspiring other bands to follow the free live recording practice.  Because of this strong community it's allowed for us to hear how their music and presentation has changed over the years.  Not quite like being there, but it brings back good memories.

 

As far as Mayer goes, he's an amazing musician and I'm glad he's part of the band.  He and Oteil bring so much energy to the band, not to mention Chimenti.  Bobby and the drummers tend to prefer a slower tempo these days but the younger guys keep em awake.

[Ralf11]

It must be very difficult to go to a new venue every day or two and try to figure out - ahead of time - how to set up for best SQ.

[ednaz]

I've long known that the sound up close is way better than back where the PA system is your primary sound system. Other than for bands like Cactus or the MC5, it's also nowhere near as body-tunneling loud. That may be why despite going to several concerts a month for years and years, my hearing is still exceptionally good in my 60s. (I also used to wear earplugs when performing, monitors deafened a lot of my friends...)

 

The one exception to that was when a few bands toured with quadrophonic sound. If you weren't back far enough to be hearing the front PA systems, the sound mixing and behavior didn't make sense at all. Oddly, the most engaging place for the quadrophonic concerts was OUTSIDE of the quad zone - music meandered or danced around in front of you then. I laughed my way through most of an ELP quadrophonic concert - they did a lot of fun stuff.

 

The superior quality of stage sound versus PA sound is one reason I don't go to live arena or even large stage shows any more. The cost to be up close verges on obscene for most bands, and the robot buyers gut the close up ticket pool.  After not enjoying a couple of very expensive concerts, I stopped going to rock concerts. With jazz concerts, they still play a lot of venues where you can sit so close you're hearing the music like you're one of the band.  That's my kind of engagement.

 

For rock, concert videos, my big screen TV and my 7.1 audio setup are just fine for me now.

[charlesphoto]

I photographed Pearl Jam this week twice at Safeco field here in Seattle, the baseball stadium with 47,000 in attendance. I've worked with the band for 25 plus years so got full run of the house to shoot the entire shows, and the sound, in an open air stadium, was nothing less than phenomenal, from the pit to the 300 level. It can be done. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

33 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

I photographed Pearl Jam this week twice at Safeco field here in Seattle, the baseball stadium with 47,000 in attendance. I've worked with the band for 25 plus years so got full run of the house to shoot the entire shows, and the sound, in an open air stadium, was nothing less than phenomenal, from the pit to the 300 level. It can be done. 

 

OMG!!!!!!!!

 

My favorite band of all time!!!!!!!

 

I had tickets for both Seattle shows and for the Missoula show coming up. Unfortunately our three-legged Chihuahua broke her only front leg remaining and we had to stay home to care for her. 

 

Im so bummed I missed those shows. 

[charlesphoto]

Oh wow. Are we Facebook “friends?” Send me a request (Charles Peterson, Seattle - got a PJ shot for my cover), and I’ll friend you. I’m also doing a limited edition print run with 1XRUN to coincide with the tour. New print unveiled each stop. 10% goes to a local homeless charity in the spirt of the Seattle concerts. https://www.1xrun.com/exhibitions/charles-peterson-drop-in-the-park/.  These are about 1/5th the price of my usual edition of 16X20 but they won’t be available ever again at this size and price after Sept 12th. Sorry for the plugging, just thought you’d like to know who I am.  

 

Been shooting these guys off and on for almost 26 years. And I just posted some great pics from yesterday’s Sub Pop 30th Anniversary on Alki Beach. Mudhoney, The Fastbacks, Metz, Shabazz Palaces etc. It’s now, August 11th, officially by decree of the Mayor Sub Pop Day. And I was there from the very beginning. Best, CP

[marce]

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