how do I build a fibre optic isolation network? [Can't I simply run an optic cable from the PC to the DAC?]

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, bibo01 said:

@jabbr Could you please recommend a 10G switch with SFP? Even from eBay... 

 

I have 2 Brocade VDX6720 24 port switches — just in case one breaks — they can be that cheap! Got to look carefully — they are very noisy and intended for a network closet and live in my basement.

 

There are often Cisco, Netgear etc that have 2-4 10g ports. 

 

How many ports and where would it be located?

 

Havent tried it but something like this 

 

D-Link Systems 20-Port SmartPro Stackable Switch & 2 Gigabit SFP Ports and 2 10GbE SFP+ Ports (DGS-1510-20) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H554JL4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_qsVzBb5902C44 

[bibo01]

2 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

I have 2 Brocade VDX6720 24 port switches — just in case one breaks — they can be that cheap! Got to look carefully — they are very noisy and intended for a network closet and live in my basement.

 

There are often Cisco, Netgear etc that have 2-4 10g ports. 

 

How many ports and where would it be located?

In my case, probably in a closet(small room too. I would need 8 ports minimum. I have seen some cisco on eBay. Does an appropriate SFP trasmitter have to be bought separately?

[jabbr]

Yes so look for SFP+ Ports/ modules — if you go with Brocade they need Brocade compatible modules which fs.com sell. The 1gbe SFP modules work in an SFP+ port — Just at 1gbe not 10

[jabbr]

Cisco is always a good choice and uses Cisco compatible modules 

[jabbr]

Like this: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F332736434368

 

OMG! So cheap but is there a catch? Ie does it only do FCOE and not just Ethernet? Etc etc so some risk 

 

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/15/brocade_vdx_fcoe_switches/

 

You see that these switches were >$10,000 in 2010 And now $200

[jabbr]

On 8/4/2018 at 10:22 AM, the_doc735 said:

Please forgive me, I am just trying to picture this in my mind.

 

Your system:

So, you use your iphone as your source(?) > running roon/hqplayer software > (can't picture what is happening next? [FOE]) > then it ends up @ the clearfog/SFP input > clearfog/USB output > DAC/USB input > analogue output?

 

My system:

So, I need 2 PC's i.e. one as a source/RJ45 out > connected to the catalyst switch/RJ45 in > SFP output > then FSP cable to > x520 NIC (in a 2nd PC) > i2s PCIe card output (in a 2nd. PC)  > DAC i2s input > analogue out. Yes?

 

 

Yes and no. 

 

The first PC could be high powered and upsample to DSD and then stream to a second very low powered device which itself connects to the DAC.

 

If your case, PCM upsampling doesn’t need as high power so you could probably do all on your PC. 

 

The I2S card doesn’t do DSD AFAIK to having PC and NAA not as helpful. 

On 8/4/2018 at 10:22 AM, the_doc735 said:

 

But then I still end up with a PC/i2s connected to the DAC/i2s, which makes the optical section pretty pointless? (as I am already connecting the PC to the DAC via i2s).

 

Many Thanks?

 

The fiber replaces the copper Ethernet not the connection to your DAC. 

[the_doc735]

16 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

 

Yes and no. 

 

The first PC could be high powered and upsample to DSD and then stream to a second very low powered device which itself connects to the DAC.

 

If your case, PCM upsampling doesn’t need as high power so you could probably do all on your PC. 

 

The I2S card doesn’t do DSD AFAIK to having PC and NAA not as helpful. 

 

The fiber replaces the copper Ethernet not the connection to your DAC. 

"The first PC could be high powered and upsample to DSD and then stream to a second very low powered device which itself connects to the DAC."

 

Right, so, does this mean in order to use the PF i2s PCIe card, I would have to replace the clearfog base with a very low power PC that can house both the i2s card and NIC card? Cheers!

[jabbr]

13 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

"The first PC could be high powered and upsample to DSD and then stream to a second very low powered device which itself connects to the DAC."

 

Right, so, does this mean in order to use the PF i2s PCIe card, I would have to replace the clearfog base with a very low power PC that can house both the i2s card and NIC card? Cheers!

Yes. Your PC is reasonably low powered so you should just start with that. 

 

My recommendation for the 8W ClearFog is because it’s cheap and has an SFP port. but it doesn’t run Windows nor allow for PCIe cards...

[the_doc735]

33 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Yes. Your PC is reasonably low powered so you should just start with that. 

 

My recommendation for the 8W ClearFog is because it’s cheap and has an SFP port. but it doesn’t run Windows nor allow for PCIe cards...

My music PC is 56W peak @ boot,  and it has an SMPS + all the standard micro ATX mobo switching noises & activity that accompany it. This is why I wanted the FOE to block all this noise out, (no point in putting it at the other end of the FOE).

Yes clearfog with just 8W is good and tiny with SFP, but I can't find any tiny/low power mini PC's or mobo's with SFP and/or i2s. Furthermore I can't find any tiny/low power mini PC's or mobo's with two PCIe slots? Could even be impossible?

Cheers!

 

[jabbr]

4 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

My music PC is 56W peak @ boot,  and it has an SMPS + all the standard micro ATX mobo switching noises & activity that accompany it. This is why I wanted the FOE to block all this noise out, (no point in putting it at the other end of the FOE).

Yes clearfog with just 8W is good and tiny with SFP, but I can't find any tiny/low power mini PC's or mobo's with SFP and/or i2s. Furthermore I can't find any tiny/low power mini PC's or mobo's with two PCIe slots? Could even be impossible?

Cheers!

 

You could use a picoPSU and then power it with a LPS. Yes simpler and lower noise is better but perhaps the PinkFaun card mitigates that? I2S is not something you are likely to see in a cheap device. The ClearFog was not designed for audio, rather for network apps/routers etc. Commercial DACs with fiber Ethernet in would be Merging etc. 

Im providing cheap, low cost methods for people to try out and that means you need to config yourself and load OS ...

[the_doc735]

10 minutes ago, jabbr said:

You could use a picoPSU and then power it with a LPS. Yes simpler and lower noise is better but perhaps the PinkFaun card mitigates that? I2S is not something you are likely to see in a cheap device. The ClearFog was not designed for audio, rather for network apps/routers etc. Commercial DACs with fiber Ethernet in would be Merging etc. 

Im providing cheap, low cost methods for people to try out and that means you need to config yourself and load OS ...

Even the ASRock Q1900M which has 2 PCIe slots, still requires noisy 24 pin ATX/SMPS!

I don't know if PF I2s mitigates noise, can't see who it could.

"Commercial DACs with fiber Ethernet 'in' would be Merging" ???

Cheers!

[jabbr]

 

19 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

Even the ASRock Q1900M which has 2 PCIe slots, still requires noisy 24 pin ATX/SMPS!

I don't know if PF I2s mitigates noise, can't see who it could.

Another can of worms. See the recent pico thread. Unless you build a custom motherboard ?ultraRendu you are going to have onboard DC/DC converters. Then no SFP input. Does it matter? Can you hear a difference?

[jabbr]

Duplicate

[jabbr]

http://bit-tech.net/news/tech/networking/uk-commits-to-full-fibre-future/1/

 

[the_doc735]

3 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Another can of worms. See the recent pico thread. Unless you build a custom motherboard ?ultraRendu you are going to have onboard DC/DC converters. Then no SFP input. Does it matter? Can you hear a difference?

I would build a custom mobo if I had the skill, but I don't. I won't know if I can hear the difference unless I try it and see! In this way of doing things i.e. FOE, it does look like I need the least possible noise in a device to plug my i2s and a NIC cards into (PCIe x1 + PCIe x16). It's all about finding a host for those two cards? I think a custom job would need to be a board purely designed for audio (like a renderer) with excellent pass through qualities and SFP input and i2s output integrated into it! No doubt there are such people with the ability to design and build this concept board?

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

http://bit-tech.net/news/tech/networking/uk-commits-to-full-fibre-future/1/

 

thanks!

[the_doc735]

3 hours ago, jabbr said:

Duplicate

odd?

[the_doc735]

...don't know if you've seen this?

"USB was never designed for high quality audio data transfer"

[the_doc735]

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

Im providing cheap, low cost methods for people to try out and that means you need to config yourself and load OS ...

 

this FOE is certainly A LOT cheaper than Hi-Fi renderers costing thousands, and I think it would be just as good, if not even better! These companies have missed a trick I feel, they need to start putting SFP on the back of their black boxes!

[the_doc735]

...actually, I wouldn't need two NIC's, because at the small PC end I could use a TP MC220L sfp input and send the signal through the ethernet to the ethernet socket on the small PC's mobo, then out the i2s to the DAC.

That means the small mobo would only need 1 PCIe socket (x1). That should be easier to find? Yes?

[the_doc735]

OK, now as other people have mentioned already the crucial part for noise is when the FOE signal is converted back to 'regular' ethernet (with RJ45)! At this point we introduce a second PC with smps and ALL the accompanying noises & interference that goes with it! i.e. the silence of the FOE is lost! So, we're back to square one, back to where we started from in the first place! So, instead of doing all this:

why not just do this:

 

???

[the_doc735]

On 8/7/2018 at 12:37 AM, the_doc735 said:

OK, now as other people have mentioned already the crucial part for noise is when the FOE signal is converted back to 'regular' ethernet (with RJ45)! At this point we introduce a second PC with smps and ALL the accompanying noises & interference that goes with it! i.e. the silence of the FOE is lost! So, we're back to square one, back to where we started from in the first place! So, instead of doing all this:

why not just do this:

 

???

@jabbr    ...with total respect, can you please answer - thank you!

[jabbr]

26 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

@jabbr    ...with total respect, can you please answer - thank you!

 

The optical isolation is most  useful when you are using the PC as an NAA/streamer and isolate a noisy DSD upsampling PC. since you are using I2S/PCM it may not matter.

 

I don’t have a Pink Faun I2S card so don’t have experience with your setup.

[beerandmusic]

JUDD SAID>>

While everyone is concentrating on isolating the PC from the DAC, I am interested in what noise may be introduced by the optical to Ethernet conversion in front of the DAC. @jabbr, any specs and/or other information (e.g., power supplies) available on that?

 

Your response was:

 

On 8/4/2018 at 2:28 PM, jabbr said:

The ClearFog Base uses like 8watts power and converts fiberoptic Ethernet to USB. Accepts a wide voltage range power including 9 or 12V which can be linear. 

 

And i believe you said in a much more recent thread that you now have an el cheapo lps connected to your clearfog base, but you didn't mention any specs or details in what that lps is or does in comparison the the supplied ps?

 

I guess my bottom line question is...how much power/noise can be in one of those fiber media converters that would be of concern, how measured, what is acceptable (e.g. not audible noise), that a better el cheapo lps can improve on the supplied ps?

 

[jabbr]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

 

And i believe you said in a much more recent thread that you now have an el cheapo lps connected to your clearfog base, but you didn't mention any specs or details in what that lps is or does in comparison the the supplied ps?

 

I guess my bottom line question is...how much power/noise can be in one of those fiber media converters that would be of concern, how measured, what is acceptable (e.g. not audible noise), that a better el cheapo lps can improve on the supplied ps?

 

 

I don't have exact numbers for you but the fiber media converters can be powered by a 5V lithium battery or one of those LPS and I wouldn't worry about it. You could use an Uptone LPS 1.2 as well. or something similar. If you'd like something really fancy the Uptone EtherREGEN should be able to serve as an FMC very well.