how do I build a fibre optic isolation network? [Can't I simply run an optic cable from the PC to the DAC?]

[the_doc735]

Hang on a minute! My PC has an optical output, and my DAC has an optical input, which I can connect with an optical cable! Is that not an isolating fibre optic ethernet network?

 

If there is a genuine noise isolation method, I want to know about it now! i.e. fibre optic network? or whatever it was?

Ok,

 

I'm happy with:

Dac

Amp

Speakers

 

I am not happy with source & noise!

 

I am definitely interested in building an isolated fibre optic front end system even though "PeterSt" doesn't seem to agree with that process?

I am prepared to ditch my current build (& current LPSU plans). However, I have no knowledge of fibre optic networks, so I am kinda hoping that members will not leave me high and dry? It starts with:

"OK - what you need to build a fibre optic isolation network is...."   OR at least links/URL's? ~ CAN'T WAIT! EXCITED!!

 

Quote jabbr: "with fibre optic network you don't need to worry about SMPS on your PC"   ...that's great!!

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/electrically-isolate-your-networked-audio

 

IS THIS:

 

NOT THE SAME AS:

 

 

???

[jabbr]

You need — an Ethernet switch that has at least 1 SFP port

You need — 2 SFP modules eg: 1000base-LX https://www.fs.com/products/12674.html

You need — an LC-LC fiberoptic cable that matches your SFP module — in this case single mode : https://www.fs.com/products/40903.html

 

You need — a network access device that accepts a SFP module and outputs USB eg the ClearFog Base 

 

1. Connect your PC to switch with an Ethernet cable (RJ-45)

2. Plug SFP modules into switch and ClearFog 

3. Connect LC-LC fiber cable to SFP modules

4. Connect your DAC to the ClearFog with a USB cable

[the_doc735]

25 minutes ago, jabbr said:

You need — an Ethernet switch that has at least 1 SFP port

You need — 2 SFP modules eg: 1000base-LX https://www.fs.com/products/12674.html

You need — an LC-LC fiberoptic cable that matches your SFP module — in this case single mode : https://www.fs.com/products/40903.html

 

You need — a network access device that accepts a SFP module and outputs USB eg the ClearFog Base 

 

1. Connect your PC to switch with an Ethernet cable (RJ-45)

2. Plug SFP modules into switch and ClearFog 

3. Connect LC-LC fiber cable to SFP modules

4. Connect your DAC to the ClearFog with a USB cable

"You need — an Ethernet switch that has at least 1 SFP port"

https://www.fs.com/uk/products/35290.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2ov2mPjQ3AIVtDLTCh0J1AFOEAkYBiABEgLwtvD_BwE

like this?

Can't I simply run an optic cable from the PC to the DAC? If NO ~ why not? please explain, thank you!

[jabbr]

That switch would do but I haven’t used.

 

TOSLINK S/PDIF is entirely different than fiberoptic Ethernet. The electronics aren’t close.Thats probably what your PC puts out, doubtful that a consumer PC would have an SFP port — fiberoptic Ethernet is intended for high performance, professional situations. For example that cable you plug in could be 20kM

[davide256]

14 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

"You need — an Ethernet switch that has at least 1 SFP port"

https://www.fs.com/uk/products/35290.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2ov2mPjQ3AIVtDLTCh0J1AFOEAkYBiABEgLwtvD_BwE

like this?

Can't I simply run an optic cable from the PC to the DAC? If NO ~ why not? please explain, thank you!

The only optic that possibly "comes with" a PC is toslink. Ethernet over fiber optics is a long haul solution designed to transmit data over very long distances. Its

value is to isolate your PC/renderer from a consumer switch/router that is electrically suspect for noise on the Ethernet connection .

 

My two cents, don't focus on fiber optics. Look for some of the threads on buying a used Cisco catalyst switch... they are industrial grade quality, last pretty much forever and cheaply available because of technology evolution to newer products. You should do just fine with wired CAT6

[jabbr]

You can do many things, copper Ethernet, Wifi or optical. The prices for fiberoptic have become very reasonable recently. Nowadays for a few dollars you can get a state of the art fiberoptic patch cable ... on this forum people are spending thousands of dollars for USB cables and "audiophile" ethernet cables, as well as "audiophile" ethernet switches that don't even have SFP connections ... Fiberoptic is good solid engineering with standards that require a certain degree of performance, in short its professional.

 

This long running thread: 

 

My only comment is that when we started doing this, there wasn't the same ease of getting a direct SFP connection to the device but now SFP connections and prices are much more reasonable (you can always get an Intel x520 NIC as well).

 

The only connection which should be focussed on would be the connection going to the DAC. From NAS to switch, or PC to switch, use whatever you wish. Doesn't matter.

 

[Ralf11]

thing about Toslink is the jitter (based on posts here; I have not measured and ain't gonna)

 

 

[the_doc735]

20 hours ago, jabbr said:

That switch would do but I haven’t used.

 

TOSLINK S/PDIF is entirely different than fiberoptic Ethernet. The electronics aren’t close.Thats probably what your PC puts out, doubtful that a consumer PC would have an SFP port — fiberoptic Ethernet is intended for high performance, professional situations. For example that cable you plug in could be 20kM

THIS is what I meant (above)!

 

So, fibre optic Ethernet is not the same as TOSLINK fibre optic?

 

Is this: https://www.audiostream.com/content/electrically-isolate-your-networked-audio classed as fibre optic Ethernet?

 

Many thanks!

[the_doc735]

20 hours ago, davide256 said:

The only optic that possibly "comes with" a PC is toslink. Ethernet over fiber optics is a long haul solution designed to transmit data over very long distances. Its

value is to isolate your PC/renderer from a consumer switch/router that is electrically suspect for noise on the Ethernet connection .

 

My two cents, don't focus on fiber optics. Look for some of the threads on buying a used Cisco catalyst switch... they are industrial grade quality, last pretty much forever and cheaply available because of technology evolution to newer products. You should do just fine with wired CAT6

I meant this:

 

"Ethernet over fiber optics is designed to transmit data over very long distances. Its value is to isolate your PC/renderer from a consumer switch/router that is electrically suspect for noise on the Ethernet connection ."

 

Great!

 

The Cisco catalyst switch looks large (millions of ports), from what I can see expensive (£xxxx), and as you say is CAT6 not FOE. Why would that be 'better' than FOE?

[the_doc735]

18 hours ago, jabbr said:

You can do many things, copper Ethernet, Wifi or optical. The prices for fiberoptic have become very reasonable recently. Nowadays for a few dollars you can get a state of the art fiberoptic patch cable ... on this forum people are spending thousands of dollars for USB cables and "audiophile" ethernet cables, as well as "audiophile" ethernet switches that don't even have SFP connections ... Fiberoptic is good solid engineering with standards that require a certain degree of performance, in short its professional.

 

This long running thread: 

 

My only comment is that when we started doing this, there wasn't the same ease of getting a direct SFP connection to the device but now SFP connections and prices are much more reasonable (you can always get an Intel x520 NIC as well).

 

The only connection which should be focussed on would be the connection going to the DAC. From NAS to switch, or PC to switch, use whatever you wish. Doesn't matter.

1) So, the Intel X520-DA2 is in place of the "Ethernet switch that has at least 1 SFP port"? ~ yes?

 

2) SFP designed for long distance professional communications. Bearing this in mind then; some people say they put the PC in a completely seperate room from the Hi-Fi!   ...Ummm?   So, how would you view what is on the monitor if the PC & monitor are in a different room i.e. you communicate with the PC through the monitor! (+keyboard/mouse), you wouldn't be able to see what is going on?

 

3) "The only connection which should be focussed on would be the connection going to the DAC."

Please elaborate some more - thank you!

These are the inputs on my DAC:

 

4) If I use the Intel X520-DA2 PCIe card, (in the PC?), what happens to my PF i2s [H] PCIe card (to DAC)?

 

Many Thanks!

[the_doc735]

14 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

thing about Toslink is the jitter (based on posts here; I have not measured and ain't gonna)

 

 

Right! ?

[davide256]

1 hour ago, the_doc735 said:

I meant this:

 

"Ethernet over fiber optics is designed to transmit data over very long distances. Its value is to isolate your PC/renderer from a consumer switch/router that is electrically suspect for noise on the Ethernet connection ."

 

Great!

 

The Cisco catalyst switch looks large (millions of ports), from what I can see expensive (£xxxx), and as you say is CAT6 not FOE. Why would that be 'better' than FOE?

As I said look for the threads discussing switches, people are buying old 10 port catalyst switches off EBay. The value is better hardware both for switching function and less

electrical noise. You can find them also with SFP ports for fiber optics for greater electrical isolation ( no voltage travels between equipment on fiber optics, just light).

 

It doesn't appear you use network streaming so all this discussion of switches and SFP's may not be germane. The link below for Rednet may be more interesting to you

https://pro.focusrite.com/category/audiooverip

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

1) So, the Intel X520-DA2 is in place of the "Ethernet switch that has at least 1 SFP port"? ~ yes?

 

No, the Intel x520 NIC is instead of the ClearFog, or anywhere you want to connect a PC via fiberoptic Ethernet.

Quote

2) SFP designed for long distance professional communications. Bearing this in mind then; some people say they put the PC in a completely seperate room from the Hi-Fi!   ...Ummm?   So, how would you view what is on the monitor if the PC & monitor are in a different room i.e. you communicate with the PC through the monitor! (+keyboard/mouse), you wouldn't be able to see what is going on?

 

I use Roon on my iPhone to control what is sent to HQPlayer which streams /NAA to my ClearFog. 

Quote

 

3) "The only connection which should be focussed on would be the connection going to the DAC."

Please elaborate some more - thank you!

These are the inputs on my DAC:

 

4) If I use the Intel X520-DA2 PCIe card, (in the PC?), what happens to my PF i2s [H] PCIe card (to DAC)?

 

You need 2 PCI-e slots on your PC for two cards.

 

Yes this is intended for network streaming. The ClearFog is like 8W 

[the_doc735]

59 minutes ago, davide256 said:

As I said look for the threads discussing switches, people are buying old 10 port catalyst switches off EBay. The value is better hardware both for switching function and less

electrical noise. You can find them also with SFP ports for fiber optics for greater electrical isolation ( no voltage travels between equipment on fiber optics, just light).

 

It doesn't appear you use network streaming so all this discussion of switches and SFP's may not be germane. The link below for Rednet may be more interesting to you

https://pro.focusrite.com/category/audiooverip

Rednet looks prohibitively expensive? (£xxxx) What price range please?

You're right not using network streaming for this purpose up until now, my first time. Really like this idea though: "SFP ports for fiber optics, no voltage travels between equipment on fiber optics, just light". So I need to know the basics.

Catalyst switches w/SFP: like this?

[Jud]

Not sure if this is the specific thread, but:

 

While everyone is concentrating on isolating the PC from the DAC, I am interested in what noise may be introduced by the optical to Ethernet conversion in front of the DAC. @jabbr, any specs and/or other information (e.g., power supplies) available on that?

[jabbr]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

Not sure if this is the specific thread, but:

 

While everyone is concentrating on isolating the PC from the DAC, I am interested in what noise may be introduced by the optical to Ethernet conversion in front of the DAC. @jabbr, any specs and/or other information (e.g., power supplies) available on that?

The ClearFog Base uses like 8watts power and converts fiberoptic Ethernet to USB. Accepts a wide voltage range power including 9 or 12V which can be linear. 

[the_doc735]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

 

No, the Intel x520 NIC is instead of the ClearFog, or anywhere you want to connect a PC via fiberoptic Ethernet.

 

I use Roon on my iPhone to control what is sent to HQPlayer which streams /NAA to my ClearFog. 

 

You need 2 PCI-e slots on your PC for two cards.

Yes this is intended for network streaming. The ClearFog is like 8W 

Please forgive me, I am just trying to picture this in my mind.

 

Your system:

So, you use your iphone as your source(?) > running roon/hqplayer software > (can't picture what is happening next? [FOE]) > then it ends up @ the clearfog/SFP input > clearfog/USB output > DAC/USB input > analogue output?

 

My system:

So, I need 2 PC's i.e. one as a source/RJ45 out > connected to the catalyst switch/RJ45 in > SFP output > then FSP cable to > x520 NIC (in a 2nd PC) > i2s PCIe card output (in a 2nd. PC)  > DAC i2s input > analogue out. Yes?

 

But then I still end up with a PC/i2s connected to the DAC/i2s, which makes the optical section pretty pointless? (as I am already connecting the PC to the DAC via i2s).

 

Many Thanks?

[the_doc735]

52 minutes ago, jabbr said:

The ClearFog Base uses like 8watts power and converts fiberoptic Ethernet to USB. Accepts a wide voltage range power including 9 or 12V which can be linear. 

what power supply  R U using on the clearfog please?  ...and what mains circuit is it running on (e.g. same as other household devices or a dedicated/isolated circuit)?

 

cheers!

[the_doc735]

as I am not a fan of USB, how about this to connect to my DAC/coax socket: Transition SFP/coax instead of the clearfog?

cheers!

[the_doc735]

how about this: https://www.fs.com/products/35333.html instead of the big catalyst switch/RJ45 in > SFP output?

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

Please forgive me, I am just trying to picture this in my mind.

 

Your system:

So, you use your iphone as your source(?) > running roon/hqplayer software > (can't picture what is happening next? [FOE]) > then it ends up @ the clearfog/SFP input > clearfog/USB output > DAC/USB input > analogue output?

 

My system:

So, I need 2 PC's i.e. one as a source/RJ45 out > connected to the catalyst switch/RJ45 in > SFP output > then FSP cable to > x520 NIC (in a 2nd PC) > i2s PCIe card output (in a 2nd. PC)  > DAC i2s input > analogue out. Yes?

 

But then I still end up with a PC/i2s connected to the DAC/i2s, which makes the optical section pretty pointless? (as I am already connecting the PC to the DAC via i2s).

 

Many Thanks?

No my iPhone controls Roon which itself uses HQPlayer fir upsampling/output. HQPlayer streams to an NAA which is the ClearFog (or an RPi3 for Wi-Fi)

 

The ClearFog is powered by an “ultra el-cheapo” LPS

 

Thats how I do it.

 

The music is stored on a NAS. I also have a low powered J1900 Celeron PC which connects to my fiber network via Intel x520, and runs Windows 10/XXHE which drives my NOS1a ... also terrific. Best output stage. Different approach.

[the_doc735]

49 minutes ago, jabbr said:

No my iPhone controls Roon which itself uses HQPlayer fir upsampling/output. HQPlayer streams to an NAA which is the ClearFog (or an RPi3 for Wi-Fi)

 

The ClearFog is powered by an “ultra el-cheapo” LPS

 

Thats how I do it.

 

The music is stored on a NAS. I also have a low powered J1900 Celeron PC which connects to my fiber network via Intel x520, and runs Windows 10/XXHE which drives my NOS1a ... also terrific. Best output stage. Different approach.

as I am not a fan of USB, how about this to connect to my DAC/coax socket: Transition SFP/coax (48W !) instead of the clearfog?

how about this: https://www.fs.com/products/35333.html instead of the big catalyst switch/RJ45 in > SFP output?

Are there alternatives to clearfog? NAA's?

Does clearfog require software setup like a PC/Laptop, or does it work right out the box? (as it doesn't have monitor/mouse/keyboard input), & if so(?) can it use windows?

 

cheers!

[jabbr]

As I said long ago, you’ve got an I2S card and probably should make the best of it. 

 

You wanted to know how I use fiberoptic Ethernet and I’ve shown you. You won’t be able to modify my instructions unless you know what you are doing ie no the ClearFog doesn’t run Windows. 

[bibo01]

10 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

@jabbr Could you please recommend a 10G switch with SFP? Even from eBay... 

[the_doc735]

15 hours ago, jabbr said:

As I said long ago, you’ve got an I2S card and probably should make the best of it. 

 

You wanted to know how I use fiberoptic Ethernet and I’ve shown you. You won’t be able to modify my instructions unless you know what you are doing ie no the ClearFog doesn’t run Windows. 

1)   Using these replies on here plus the first page of your optical network config. thread, and using your suggested items, please look at my two charts "below" and tell me if you think they would work or not? Please alter/amend anything that is incorrect!

 

2)   why only single optical module & cable, instead of dual/double? (i.e. Tx/Rx)

3)   does the clearfog need any setting up?

4)   I still can't see where my PF i2s card plays a part?

5)   Is your HQPlayer a hardware device? (not software)

 

Many Thanks!