Article: Should You Rent or Buy Audio Software?

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, chrisc said:

Been using JRiver for 8 years now, but only for audio.  It is complicated, sure, but when carefully set up, delivers the goods.

 

Did you ever try Roon, or planning to try ?

[chrisc]

No, not tried it, but another friend uses it. 
Someone else I know uses Tidal and wants to use Roon as well, so I will be assisting him

[Teresa]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:21 PM, sdolezalek said:

 

Theresa:  God for you!

As Chris said, just thinking about this ruined my evening.  Here is an incomplete list of "rent" stuff:

 

Pure Audio:

Roon

Audirvana

JRiver

Tidal

Computer:

Office 365

Google Enterprise (G Suite)

Website Hosting and manager 

Antivirus

Backup and restore

Cloud storage

Password Manager

Adobe Photoshop & related

Entertainment & Communications:

High Speed internet

Cable

Cell phones

iPad

Digital phone lines

DirecTv, Netflix, Hulu, etc.

Other:

Amazon Prime

Various magazine subscriptions

Paper and 4 online newspaper subscriptions

Strava and other sports related subscriptions

 

Wow! I don't know what that adds up to, however it looks like it might be into many hundreds of dollars per month. How do you afford all that? And more than that how do you justify the cost?

 

You listed some other stuff I don't subscribe to, I missed in my first post.

• I use the free wi-fi my apartment complex offers to access the internet. If they quit offering it I will go back to what I did before, accessing the internet at the Public Library. No way would I pay $20 to $50 for internet access.
• I have never owned a cell phone, smart or otherwise, I have a corded landline phone that cost me $6 at Walmart, which I expect to last at least 10 - 15 years before I have to replace it. My monthly landline telephone bill is $21.91 including all taxes and fees. If they ever do away with landlines I will just no longer have a telephone.
• I have my music backed up on a Seagate Slim Mac drive and on DVD-data discs. So no monthly fees here either.

 

I am curious why you subscribe to 4 software players? Why isn't one enough?

 

I also notice you subscribe to lots of TV services. Why not use an cheap antenna instead for free HDTV? Many channels are 1080 with superior picture and sound quality compared to cable , satellite or online.

 

As I stated before when my current subscriptions to Stereophile and The Absolute Sound expire I will not be renewing them, so the only monthly fees I will have is my apartment rent and my landline phone bill.

[Teresa]

1 hour ago, Teresa said:

...free HDTV?...

 

That should read "free over-the-air HDTV". Sorry, it was too late to edit my post.

[mansr]

2 hours ago, Teresa said:

I also notice you subscribe to lots of TV services. Why not use an cheap antenna instead for free HDTV?

Streaming services like Netflix and Amazon have huge catalogues available to view when it suits you, not when it happens to air. A lot of people find that convenience worth paying for.

[sdolezalek]

17 hours ago, Teresa said:

 

Wow! I don't know what that adds up to, however it looks like it might be into many hundreds of dollars per month. How do you afford all that? And more than that how do you justify the cost?

 

I am curious why you subscribe to 4 software players? Why isn't one enough?

 

I also notice you subscribe to lots of TV services. Why not use an cheap antenna instead for free HDTV? Many channels are 1080 with superior picture and sound quality compared to cable , satellite or online.

 

As I stated before when my current subscriptions to Stereophile and The Absolute Sound expire I will not be renewing them, so the only monthly fees I will have is my apartment rent and my landline phone bill.

 

Some of this is subscribed for by other family members (mostly the kids); and yes, it adds up quickly.  The point I was trying to get across is that many of these don't amount to that much individually (i.e. $10/month), but we forget how much stuff we have subscribed to and over time vendors make more money this way than if they sold us a one-time license up front (particularly if they autorenew).

 

I have 4 music software players because I'm curious how they are each progressing (so I support the hobby by supporting them).

 

As to the TV stuff, here in the US I find Network Television (what you can get for free) to be just terrible, so I subscribe to services that provide me with specific content I want to watch (it is cheaper than going to the movies regularly). 

[beerandmusic]

Most people on low fixed income will never buy a subscription...

And why rent, when you can buy a product that sounds better (e.g. hqplayer), or get free (e.g. fb2k) that you can browse by folders.

The only reason i would see buying a subscription is if money is of no object and you want to use 2 programs (roon & hqplayer) to get the best sound, but then you still can't browse.

Jriver, hqplayer, and fb2k make more sense, than paying a subscription fee and have less flexibility.

when roon changes to a buy with maint updates, then i will add it to my collection of programs.

I also would likely buy roon $500 lifetime, possibly even more, if they ever use hqplayer internally, add alexa support, and add browse by folder capability...until then it isn't worth it.

[R1200CL]

7 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

add browse by folder capability

 

You do know how that is possible to achive even now ?

 

Aslo if you purchase a SonicTransporter, you are pretty close to “HQPlayer internally”, and I can’t see how a possible rock integration would change that. 

 

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

You do know how that is possible to achive even now ?

 

was something new (as in within the last 2-3 years ago added)?  Someone has suggested it is possible by doing some tricks, but then someone contradicted them saying it is not efficient for one reason or the other.  I really don't know the solution, but if no new functionality was added in last 2 years to allow it, then I don't "believe" (but may be wrong), it is intuitive or a smooth operation as typical browse by folder?  But i am all ears.

[R1200CL]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I really don't know the solution

 

Import by folder. Tag each folder. Then use focus and bookmark. 

 

Also look here :

[beerandmusic]

4 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Import by folder. Tag each folder. Then use focus and bookmark. 

 

Also look here :

ok, assume i import all my music by "import by folder"

If i add an album to a folder will it be visible by "storage locations" without additional importing/tagging ?   If not, you really cannot browse by folder?

[R1200CL]

Well, lets expand this a bit then. 

 

Apple has just indicated that they like you to rent everything on AppStore. No more purchase apps or free downloads.

 

What a horrible idea. Or ?

[rodrigaj]

11 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Well, lets expand this a bit then. 

 

Apple has just indicated that they like you to rent everything on AppStore. No more purchase apps or free downloads.

 

What a horrible idea. Or ?

The link provided requires a subscription to Business Insider Prime.

[SlimPickins]

1 hour ago, rodrigaj said:

The link provided requires a subscription to Business Insider Prime.

Comparable articles.

https://bgr.com/2018/08/13/ios-app-store-moving-to-subscription-model/

https://venturebeat.com/2018/08/13/apple-reportedly-asked-devs-to-adopt-subscriptions-and-hike-app-prices/

https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/08/13/apple-met-with-developers-to-2017-to-push-app-subscriptions

 

[Vectra]

For me it depends a lot on the product, pricing and my support needs (if any).

 

- sometimes I don't need to stay current.  Every 3rd update may be sufficient making buy model more attractive (i.e not sure why I want more than JRiver MC23 at the moment)

- some buy models have enough sales to make that even more attractive

- some SW seems more risky of being my desired platform over time which wouldn't justify too long of a breakeven period 

 

3 years is often attractive if not too painful upfront and I want all the updates

 

I use:

JRiver - buy w/periodic updates

Emby - lifetime

Collectorz - buy w/periodic updates

 

plus Apple Music for phone and Netflix 

[bobfa]

I am going to add another class of software.  You “purchase” the software for your use and it includes “updates” until the next “major” version is released.   You are HAPPY.  Then six months or nine months down the road the company says HEY DUDE we have a new version and it will be “$49” upgrade fee and you REALLY NEED it.  So how can you be happy with our old and tired software you need the new version;TODAY!!

 

I am not sure what to call this model but it is happening more and more in the photography world. I think it is a reaction to the costs of keeping software up to date and to keep or increase revenue.  Maybe we call this subscription by proxy?

——————

I Have a problem with Roon being called a software subscription.  You are purchasing a database service that provides you information and the control of the flow of music data between your devices and over the network.    Roon has a great database service and the software to run it is very good.  Roon seems to be sliding sidways to hardware and trying to get into the home control world as it used to exist.  I really do not see how control4, etc. helps them in the long run, but I may have a narrow view here.

———————

Apple, Amazon, Spotify, the rest of them are again not software but in general a subscription to deliver music from the internet.  Some folks may even get paid in the process for their musical talents.  Apple’s model is here is cool software that only works on our great hardware; please buy some of our hardware..  Amazon just wants to be in between every transaction you do so why not music..  Spotify is Napster for profit....  

 

*** I am talking about Apple Music mostly but iTunes is a just a delivery tool.  So is Airplay.

 

———————

 

Sonos and Bluesound do software to sell hardware.  Both are scrambling for market share where more and more folks put earbuds on and stream from their devices/internet.  

 

NAIM and others are trying to bridge the HiFi world and the Smartphone world (So is Roon???).  Again the Apple model of providing software to make their cool hardware work.  I think that this class of hardware and software is going to get bigger if  more people start to understand what “good sound” is.  At least I hope it does for my use and for some of the folks I do consulting for.

 

*** I really wonder how many multi-room synced streaming services the world needs ***

 

———————

 

It used to be that we glued things together with wires.  Now we network things and glue them together with software.  There is an adage that software is eating the world.  IT might just be true.

 

I am not sure that the actual distinction of how we “acquire and maintain” software is actually relevant.  It may be emotional like the Adobe and Microsoft shift to subscriptions.  It may be a marriage of systems, data, and hardware like Roon.  

 

We have to manage our expections and our “history” to understand where we are going.  I think programmability of things is were we are today and that appears to be the trajectory of our music listening.  There will be more software it will cost time and money to develop and deliver.  Some how that bill has to be paid.

 

————

 

Finally I do know about LP’s, magnetic tape, etc.  They are very very niche and their delta-v to broader use is hardly measureable compared to digital delivery on mobile devices..

 

—————

Now back to adjusting my turntable and listening to Roon stream a ripped CD from my server to my stereo..  Man this hobby is fun.

 

 

Bob

 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

I am going to add another class of software.  You “purchase” the software for your use and it includes “updates” until the next “major” version is released.   You are HAPPY.  Then six months or nine months down the road the company says HEY DUDE we have a new version and it will be “$49” upgrade fee and you REALLY NEED it.  So how can you be happy with our old and tired software you need the new version;TODAY!!

Why does anyone believe that the new version is really needed?  If you are using the old version without issues and the changes/improvements/fixes in the new version do not address anything of concern to you, why change?  I am still using "our old and tired" MIcrosoft Office 2007 because it still does everything I need and there are many other examples.  

 

I regularly update JRiver because (1) I use it every day and almost all the time, (2) it is relatively cheap and (3) I am continually finding new and useful facilities, some of which I did not anticipate needing.

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Why does anyone believe that the new version is really needed?  If you are using the old version without issues and the changes/improvements/fixes in the new version do not address anything of concern to you, why change?  I am still using "our old and tired" MIcrosoft Office 2007 because it still does everything I need and there are many other examples.  

If you handle files from untrusted sources (meaning anyone but yourself, at best), you will need to get fixes for security issues in the software. There are probably a thousand ways Office 2007 can be tricked into doing something nasty simply by opening a file.

[Kal Rubinson]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

If you handle files from untrusted sources (meaning anyone but yourself, at best), you will need to get fixes for security issues in the software. There are probably a thousand ways Office 2007 can be tricked into doing something nasty simply by opening a file.

Possibly but I am pretty careful about untrusted sources and fortunate, at least so far.  (Don't take that as a challenge.)

[firedog]

23 minutes ago, mansr said:

If you handle files from untrusted sources (meaning anyone but yourself, at best), you will need to get fixes for security issues in the software. There are probably a thousand ways Office 2007 can be tricked into doing something nasty simply by opening a file.

Yes. But a better example would be JRiver. I never upgraded from v20 because they weren’t offering me anything additional I wanted. Like all software, you will at some point need to upgrade or stop using it for security reasons. But with something like JRiver that will probably take a log time. 

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, firedog said:

Yes. But a better example would be JRiver. I never upgraded from v20 because they weren’t offering me anything additional I wanted. Like all software, you will at some point need to upgrade or stop using it for security reasons. But with something like JRiver that will probably take a log time. 

It's scary what can be achieved with a maliciously crafted mp4 file. Simpler file formats are harder, but not impossible, to exploit. I don't know any specifics regarding JRiver, but all software has bugs.

[bobfa]

On paying for software

 

https://seths.blog/2018/06/on-paying-for-software/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2Fsethsmainblog+(Seth's+Blog)

[Ralf11]

back in the Late Holocene, many, many people used to think that software should be free.

[Sal1950]

Just lightly scanning this thread, the big picture of what is expected/needed for what used be be a simple piece of jukebox emulator software has become staggering. If your dedicated in ways like most folks here are to one extent or another, it's not too bad. But the learning curve for yet another tiny piece of media enjoyment equipment has gone over the roof along with things like your "smart" phone and your cars dashboard.  I'm very pleased my needs are simple, a nice UI to access my files and supply them to my DAC in a bit-perfect manner is all I need. My current Linux build of Clementine does that in a way that fulfills my needs just fine, and it's completely free, while at the same time providing fully transparent audio to my speakers.

Within 20 years the user manual to flush your toilet will be 300 pages and require 3 months of use to master. Either that or you ask, "Alexa, pull the chain".  ?

 

 

[firedog]

5 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Just lightly scanning this thread, the big picture of what is expected/needed for what used be be a simple piece of jukebox emulator software has become staggering. If your dedicated in ways like most folks here are to one extent or another, it's not too bad. But the learning curve for yet another tiny piece of media enjoyment equipment has gone over the roof along with things like your "smart" phone and your cars dashboard.  I'm very pleased my needs are simple, a nice UI to access my files and supply them to my DAC in a bit-perfect manner is all I need. My current Linux build of Clementine does that in a way that fulfills my needs just fine, and it's completely free, while at the same time providing fully transparent audio to my speakers.

Within 20 years the user manual to flush your toilet will be 300 pages and require 3 months of use to master. Either that or you ask, "Alexa, pull the chain".  ?

 

 

Sal, everyone has their preferences. If you are happy with a simple interface that's great. A few years ago I used the LMS-Squeezebox interface or even Foobar (which I put some effort into personalizing the UI for my needs). I was happy with them. 
 

 I then moved to JRiver/ JRemote. Had a few features which added up to a better experience which added actual enjoyment to listening. 

 

All of the above had  a learning curve. Nothing too difficult, but some investment of time and effort at the beginning. 
 

Now I use Roon. Again, for me it's a further upgrade in not just convenience/UI, but an actual increase in enjoyment listening to music. It does a much better job of enabling me to listen to music the way I want to, not the way the app or the HW want me to. IMO the learning curve isn't great. 

 

I don't expect you to agree.  But you do realize that your Linux build would be beyond the ability or the desire to fiddle of at least 95% of users? They've never done a Linux install and that alone will be a barrier for them. Not to mention using an OS they aren't familiar with. I understand you think it is trivial, but there are reasons Linux has very few adopters in the non professional world outside of hobbyists of one sort or another. For the vast majority that trumps the "free" aspect. 

 

As far as your other point, I don't know of any playback software that has a zero learning curve for those who don't know about such things. Those who want a zero learning curve should stick to LPs, cassettes, and CDs (unless they are millenials who've never encountered such things before...).