Article: Should You Rent or Buy Audio Software?

[R1200CL]

52 minutes ago, serendipitydawg said:

What software (Windows 7) would you suggest that does upsampling, DSD & UPnP?

 

 

Do you have Roon ?

 

Of cause I’m sure you aware HQPlayer ?

 

[firedog]

58 minutes ago, serendipitydawg said:

(does that make me "good"??)

Yes!

[NOMBEDES]

Ha!

 

NetFlix

Hulu

Amazon Prime

Roon

Cell Service

Comcast

This that and the other thing.

 

How many subscriptions can the average bloke afford?

 

 

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, serendipitydawg said:

What software (Windows 7) would you suggest that does upsampling, DSD & UPnP?

 

Or

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-mscaler/.  ?

[R1200CL]

25 minutes ago, NOMBEDES said:

How many subscriptions can the average bloke afford?

 

Or how much time you have ? ?

 

Not to mention if your live live alone or not. And working.....

[Ralf11]

rent if you are close to death

[NOMBEDES]

20 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

rent if you are close to death

 

Or take on massive debt.  One way to screw our overlords!! 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

3 hours ago, serendipitydawg said:

On a personal note I found jRiver perplexing at best & irritating at worst. I am pretty sure I could talk the dumbest of my acquaitances though setting up foobar on the phone (does that make me "good"??)

And I could say the say with JRiver and foobar swapped.  ?

[astrotoy]

Very interesting topic. I am seeing several different threads of arguments.

 

First, it is really great to have free software. The question immediately arises is whether this is an eleemosynary activity, like the people who volunteer to clean up parks and riverbanks on the weekend for the benefit of others.  I contribute to Mozilla, Wiki, CA just because I think the world is better off with them. Or is there some deeper purpose.  Or is it just some form of theft of intellectual property.  Here I am thinking of software piracy or the "wonderful" Napster as an example. I remember , not quite 20 years ago Scott McNeeley, then CEO of Sun Microsystems, offered a free open source Office Suite to compete with MS Office.  His goal was to have the software eventually on the cloud, so that someone could easily move from one computer (workstation) to another and not have to carry their work with them.  Of course, he had an ulterior motive, a few years ahead of his time.  Now Google Voice and Google docs, etc. are free software in the cloud, with a catch.  Are consumers willing to get a "free" service if it means control by a big company that can afford to provide the free service in exchange for something else - something that you don't realize you are giving - a hidden "Faustian Bargain".   

 

Second, buying one time. Is this a viable business model?  Quick infusion of capital to support the R&D costs, but is it enough to sustain the enterprise.  A lifetime license is the lifetime of the company.  I purchased a Roon lifetime subscription because I think it is a good product, but I know there is a very good chance that I may not recover my subscription cost. The point made that the economics of Roon may mean that the initial lifetime subscription may well be underpriced to sustain Roon, but is the way to develop a user base and pay for improvements that attract more subscribing customers.

 

Third, annual or monthly subscription.  Success occurs when you can grow the subscription base to pay for the ongoing expenses of the company and some profit.  Clearly, you need to have an attractive enough service to hold onto the subscriber base long term. Ideally, the subscriber becomes addicted to the service (like cigarettes) and the addition spreads.

 

Fourth, creating a "need," not just a "want".  Cybersecurity is one such need.  You can't stay on an old version, because it becomes unsafe to use, with devastating consequences. Of course, the service must be so attractive that abandoning it is not a good option.  That latter point can be difficult to maintain in a technological world. Another example is that using the same software (e.g. Microsoft Office) if adopted universally, at least by an interest group, means if you use a competitor, then you are at a great disadvantage.  Not too long ago Lotus 1-2-3, Word Perfect, Netscape were all big name players.  In those days, businesses, colleges and universities, etc. would often allow their employees and students to choose their own software.  This quickly became a disaster and everyone standardized.  Having a de facto monopoly makes the subscription model much easier to maintain.

 

Larry

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, astrotoy said:

Very interesting topic. I am seeing several different threads of arguments.

 

First, it is really great to have free software. The question immediately arises is whether this is an eleemosynary activity, like the people who volunteer to clean up parks and riverbanks on the weekend for the benefit of others.  I contribute to Mozilla, Wiki, CA just because I think the world is better off with them. Or is there some deeper purpose.  Or is it just some form of theft of intellectual property.  Here I am thinking of software piracy or the "wonderful" Napster as an example. I remember , not quite 20 years ago Scott McNeeley, then CEO of Sun Microsystems, offered a free open source Office Suite to compete with MS Office.  His goal was to have the software eventually on the cloud, so that someone could easily move from one computer (workstation) to another and not have to carry their work with them.  Of course, he had an ulterior motive, a few years ahead of his time.  Now Google Voice and Google docs, etc. are free software in the cloud, with a catch.  Are consumers willing to get a "free" service if it means control by a big company that can afford to provide the free service in exchange for something else - something that you don't realize you are giving - a hidden "Faustian Bargain".   

 

Second, buying one time. Is this a viable business model?  Quick infusion of capital to support the R&D costs, but is it enough to sustain the enterprise.  A lifetime license is the lifetime of the company.  I purchased a Roon lifetime subscription because I think it is a good product, but I know there is a very good chance that I may not recover my subscription cost. The point made that the economics of Roon may mean that the initial lifetime subscription may well be underpriced to sustain Roon, but is the way to develop a user base and pay for improvements that attract more subscribing customers.

 

Third, annual or monthly subscription.  Success occurs when you can grow the subscription base to pay for the ongoing expenses of the company and some profit.  Clearly, you need to have an attractive enough service to hold onto the subscriber base long term. Ideally, the subscriber becomes addicted to the service (like cigarettes) and the addition spreads.

 

Fourth, creating a "need," not just a "want".  Cybersecurity is one such need.  You can't stay on an old version, because it becomes unsafe to use, with devastating consequences. Of course, the service must be so attractive that abandoning it is not a good option.  That latter point can be difficult to maintain in a technological world. Another example is that using the same software (e.g. Microsoft Office) if adopted universally, at least by an interest group, means if you use a competitor, then you are at a great disadvantage.  Not too long ago Lotus 1-2-3, Word Perfect, Netscape were all big name players.  In those days, businesses, colleges and universities, etc. would often allow their employees and students to choose their own software.  This quickly became a disaster and everyone standardized.  Having a de facto monopoly makes the subscription model much easier to maintain.

 

Larry

 

 

 

Very interesting comments Larry.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write. Hope you are well.

[sdolezalek]

It would be quite interesting to do a survey of how much we each spend these days on various forms of software "subscriptions."  The various Roon, JRiver, Audirvana, HQ Player and Photoshop mentions is what we tend to think about.  But what about our monthly cable/satellite bill, smartphone bill, our Office 365 license, our security software license, the license associated with our front door cameras, our off-line storage, our electronic magazine subscriptions, Amazon Prime, Netflix,...it just goes on and on.  Do you really know how much of your disposable income you spend on monthly/annual subscriptions?  

 

The other reality is that we today do expect each one of these subscriptions to provide us with something new or better on a constant basis, in a way that we didn't when we purchased items outright.  That is less true of music subscriptions; but there we are getting the ability to access 100X the content for relatively little money, which we gladly trade for the cost of buying content that we may only listen to a few times.  So many of the subscription models provide us, as customers, with features, functions, benefits, that we really like.  

 

Subscriptions also benefit the incumbent.  As someone has already mentioned, the subscription model is very expensive for a startup, because you don't get a lot of revenue up front, the way you would if you sold a single copy.  But, over time, the recurring revenue aspects of subscriptions are really great for large companies and serve as a barrier to entry against newcomers who can't afford the R&D spend without a lot of revenue.  

 

Lastly, these subscription models work well in a time of wealth and abundance; and in times of rapid change.  Few want to buy versus rent if what they bought is obsolete after a couple of years -- better to rent.  But if our economy slowed or the pace of change slowed, we all would suddenly pay attention to our monthly subscription spending and probably realize we can reduce by half without giving up that much.  In that economic environment, single license purchases are more likely to return.  Only question is when we move from today's world to that one.  

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

It would be quite interesting to do a survey of how much we each spend these days on various forms of software "subscriptions."  The various Roon, JRiver, Audirvana, HQ Player and Photoshop mentions is what we tend to think about.  But what about our monthly cable/satellite bill, smartphone bill, our Office 365 license, our security software license, the license associated with our front door cameras, our off-line storage, our electronic magazine subscriptions, Amazon Prime, Netflix,...it just goes on and on.  Do you really know how much of your disposable income you spend on monthly/annual subscriptions?

You just ruined my night :~)

[rodrigaj]

From what I have read, the continuation of the "lifetime" purchase of Roon is an indication of some sort of a startup stagnation.

 

I am not necessarily in agreement with that, but it does appear to be what is being written here.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, rodrigaj said:

From what I have read, the continuation of the "lifetime" purchase of Roon is an indication of some sort of a startup stagnation.

 

I am not necessarily in agreement with that, but it does appear to be what is being written here.

Because it is being written here doesn't mean it has anything to do with reality. It's just internet speculation.

[The Computer Audiophile]

22 minutes ago, firedog said:

Because it is being written here doesn't mean it has anything to do with reality. It's just internet speculation.

Come on, that doesn't happen on the internet :~)

[agladstone]

I purchased my Aurender Server / Streamer just about the time when Roon, HQPLAYER, and SOtM and MicroRendu (and the popular combination of using all of the above together) started to become what almost seems like “the standard” amongst most fellow Audiophiles. 

As a result, I became essentially jealous of all these apparently amazing things that Roon can provide, particularly with HQPlayer up sampling everything to DSD 512, etc. 

Because of Aurender’s confined ecosystem approach, here I was “stuck” with the boring brown Conductor app, and no ability to upsample my library to DSD 512 on the fly ... 

However, lately I’ve decided, I actually now feel like the fortunate one! 

I’ve come to learn how to use the Consuctor app very well, and I’ve learned all the workarounds for any little nuances, etc. 

I now realize, that the Conductor apps benefits are that it’s actually very functional and most importantly, it just plain works!! 

Aurender also has been slow but steady to release updates and improvements and new features and best of yet, not only is it relatively simple to use and very functional,,,, it’s free!! Including the continued updates and enhancements. 

Also, the Aurender HW in and of itself sounds splendid (to me) and I don’t have to spend time fussing with HQPlayer, and Roon, and Trifecta’s and The required associated external clocks, and servers... 

So, I suppose what I’m saying is that I feel from my experience the best route is possibly to spend a little more upfront for a high quality HW solution that comes with free SW, it’s much more of a “plug and play” solution, requires little to no time tinkering and learning how to use and program this and that, and no continued additional expenses. 

In the end, I think The Aurender and comparable HW/SW devices end up actually costing less money and time in the end. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, agladstone said:

I purchased my Aurender Server / Streamer just about the time when Roon, HQPLAYER, and SOtM and MicroRendu (and the popular combination of using all of the above together) started to become what almost seems like “the standard” amongst most fellow Audiophiles. 

As a result, I became essentially jealous of all these apparently amazing things that Roon can provide, particularly with HQPlayer up sampling everything to DSD 512, etc. 

Because of Aurender’s confined ecosystem approach, here I was “stuck” with the boring brown Conductor app, and no ability to upsample my library to DSD 512 on the fly ... 

However, lately I’ve decided, I actually now feel like the fortunate one! 

I’ve come to learn how to use the Consuctor app very well, and I’ve learned all the workarounds for any little nuances, etc. 

I now realize, that the Conductor apps benefits are that it’s actually very functional and most importantly, it just plain works!! 

Aurender also has been slow but steady to release updates and improvements and new features and best of yet, not only is it relatively simple to use and very functional,,,, it’s free!! Including the continued updates and enhancements. 

Also, the Aurender HW in and of itself sounds splendid (to me) and I don’t have to spend time fussing with HQPlayer, and Roon, and Trifecta’s and The required associated external clocks, and servers... 

So, I suppose what I’m saying is that I feel from my experience the best route is possibly to spend a little more upfront for a high quality HW solution that comes with free SW, it’s much more of a “plug and play” solution, requires little to no time tinkering and learning how to use and program this and that, and no continued additional expenses. 

In the end, I think The Aurender and comparable HW/SW devices end up actually costing less money and time in the end. 

 

Nice to read your perspective. Thanks for posting. 

[DarwinOSX]

I did pay for subscriptions to Pandora, Apple Music, and Tidal plus Roon until recently.  Now I only pay for Apple Music and Pandora.  If Apple Musics radio stations were better I would be able to stop paying for Pandora.  I did use Spotify too but dumped after Apple Music came out.  AM sounds better and I prefer the interface. YMMV but ogg is a lousy and dated codec which Sptofy uses because it is free.

Since I switched all my my music to multiple pairs of stereo paired HomePods I dropped Tidal and Roon which I was using mostly with Kef LS 50W's.  As goods a that was I prefer the simplicity and convenience of Homepods plus the 360 sound.  Also they sound great.

Like a lot of people I have many years of music in iTunes and have matched it to 256k AAC which sounds pretty darn good.  if I listen to something in Apple Music that I don't own and like it then I buy it.  I also routinely download everything i have in iTunes and save it to an external drive.  It's at about 25GB now I think.  I wouldn't want to just rent music.

 

 

[DarwinOSX]

On 7/25/2018 at 2:38 PM, Ralf11 said:

buy some stock in a software co. - you'll love it then

 

That would be a bad stock purchase since none of them are making money.

Google, Amazon and Apple can afford to break even or lose a little.  

AM in particular is there to supplement the devices Apple sales.

Spotify and Pandora have never made money and show no signs of doing so.

[mansr]

33 minutes ago, DarwinOSX said:

Spotify and Pandora have never made money and show no signs of doing so.

That could mean that they are good value while they last.

[lucretius]

“Purchase” model

I decide if and when I will purchase upgrades and/or maintenance contracts. So if the version I’m using is doing the job for me I can continue this way without paying for the upgrades/maintenance.  There are some pieces of software that I’ve “purchased” where I upgrade only every other major release.  I save money.

Subscription model

I get the latest upgrades (and maintenance support) when available and I could opt out at the next subscription period (monthly or annually). If the subscription price is small relative to the “purchase” price, this may be more economical if there is a chance one will not use the software in the long term. This model also encourages the developers to provide regular updates.

[Teresa]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 12:54 PM, wgscott said:

...she got fooled into auto-renewal.

 

What I do is pay by check or money order which cannot be auto-renewed.

 

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 1:24 AM, michael123 said:

We don't buy software, we never own it...

 

Yet another reason to not buy or rent computer software.

 

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 12:43 PM, NOMBEDES said:

...How many subscriptions can the average bloke afford?

 

For me it's not about affordability but if I am willing to spend. I seldom subscribe, especially to non-tangible items.

 

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 10:47 PM, sdolezalek said:

It would be quite interesting to do a survey of how much we each spend these days on various forms of software "subscriptions."  The various Roon, JRiver, Audirvana, HQ Player and Photoshop mentions is what we tend to think about.  But what about our monthly cable/satellite bill, smartphone bill, our Office 365 license, our security software license, the license associated with our front door cameras, our off-line storage, our electronic magazine subscriptions, Amazon Prime, Netflix,...it just goes on and on.  Do you really know how much of your disposable income you spend on monthly/annual subscriptions?  

 

The other reality is that we today do expect each one of these subscriptions to provide us with something new or better on a constant basis, in a way that we didn't when we purchased items outright.  That is less true of music subscriptions; but there we are getting the ability to access 100X the content for relatively little money, which we gladly trade for the cost of buying content that we may only listen to a few times.  So many of the subscription models provide us, as customers, with features, functions, benefits, that we really like.  

 

Subscriptions also benefit the incumbent.  As someone has already mentioned, the subscription model is very expensive for a startup, because you don't get a lot of revenue up front, the way you would if you sold a single copy.  But, over time, the recurring revenue aspects of subscriptions are really great for large companies and serve as a barrier to entry against newcomers who can't afford the R&D spend without a lot of revenue.  

 

Lastly, these subscription models work well in a time of wealth and abundance; and in times of rapid change.  Few want to buy versus rent if what they bought is obsolete after a couple of years -- better to rent.  But if our economy slowed or the pace of change slowed, we all would suddenly pay attention to our monthly subscription spending and probably realize we can reduce by half without giving up that much.  In that economic environment, single license purchases are more likely to return.  Only question is when we move from today's world to that one.  

 

I have two physical magazines subscriptions and that's it, just because they were so cheap which lowered my normal resistance. I got two years of Stereophile for $14 (58 cents an issue!) and one year of The Absolute Sound for $14.95. When my current subscriptions expire I will not be renewing them, so I will then have zero subscriptions.

 

I have a Teac UD-501 DSD / PCM DAC and use the Teac HR Audio player they offer for free. I have an antenna for my HDTV I paid $15 for and I get over 20 channels in my city. No need to throw away money on cable, satellite, streaming, etc., free over-the-air programming gives me all I need. Anyway, I spend way too much time watching TV as it is.

 

I don't subscribe to text, music, video, cloud storage, etc. I see it all as a waste of money, at least for me. I use the software that is included with my computer or available for free if I need something not included.

 

"Do you really know how much of your disposable income you spend on monthly/annual subscriptions?"

 

Yes, as noted above just the two magazines. This year so far it is zero and I intend to keep it at zero.

[audiventory]

In most cases a software must be developed:

1. fixing bugs, that rise during time;
2. fixing issues with new operation systems;
3. adding new functionality, that time demans;
4. improving existing functionality.

Also it is necessary:

1. time to research and development, answer the user question and solving different issues of using a software;
2. fund for licenses (certificates, software, ...) that used in development, distributing and other, upgrade/repair of intensively used computers, etc.

All these things are uninterrupted and should be funded permanently to a project alive. I don't see here difference between free and paid software. Anyway somebody pay for a software.

 

If the project is free, it may be funded for other paid products or donates, as example. Or other ways.

 

If the project is paid, updates and subscription can give fund to project life.

 

 

Updates may be more comfortable for user, because it allow don't pay money, if user don't see sense in new updates.

 

As consumer, I don't see big difference between updates and subscription, because paid software, that I use, is permanently and reasonably (for me) developed.

[sdolezalek]

2 hours ago, Teresa said:

"Do you really know how much of your disposable income you spend on monthly/annual subscriptions?"

 

Yes, as noted above just the two magazines. This year so far it is zero and I intend to keep it at zero.

 

Theresa:  God for you!

As Chris said, just thinking about this ruined my evening.  Here is an incomplete list of "rent" stuff:

 

Pure Audio:

Roon

Audirvana

JRiver

Tidal

Computer:

Office 365

Google Enterprise (G Suite)

Website Hosting and manager 

Antivirus

Backup and restore

Cloud storage

Password Manager

Adobe Photoshop & related

Entertainment & Communications:

High Speed internet

Cable

Cell phones

iPad

Digital phone lines

DirecTv, Netflix, Hulu, etc.

Other:

Amazon Prime

Various magazine subscriptions

Paper and 4 online newspaper subscriptions

Strava and other sports related subscriptions

 

 

[chrisc]

On 7/29/2018 at 4:00 PM, Kal Rubinson said:

And I could say the say with JRiver and foobar swapped.  ?

 

Been using JRiver for 8 years now, but only for audio.  It is complicated, sure, but when carefully set up, delivers the goods. I'm using all 3 versions, Windows, Mac and Linux.  The Linux version needs some work, certain aspects are missing.  One small nuisance with the Mac version is Apple's continuing tinkering with their OS.  Its fine now, but 2 years back, certain drivers were missing for a few months

 

A big bonus with JRiver is their forum.   You can get answers on any topic whatever, relating to JRiver, whether from one of the admins or another member

 

The newer releases and upgrades are quite heavily discounted for several months