Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted July 25, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 25, 2018 View full article wgscott and tmtomh 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
tmtomh Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Buy. I really hate the software rental model. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 buy some stock in a software co. - you'll love it then The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
wgscott Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Conventionally, "free" has a very different meaning in the context of software. https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software iTunes is not "free" in this context, as it is closed-source and proprietary. Foobar is "freeware" but proprietary. The SDK is less restrictive (BSD). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar2000 Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, tmtomh said: Buy. I really hate the software rental model. Can you tell a bit more about why you hate it. Just curious to read all the perspectives. No right or wrong. tmtomh 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, wgscott said: Conventionally, "free" has a very different meaning in the context of software. https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software iTunes is not "free" in this context, as it is closed-source and proprietary. Foobar is "freeware" but proprietary. The SDK is less restrictive (BSD). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar2000 I use the consumer definition of free. No money needed to use it. But i fully understand the other definitions. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Even though I bought Audirvana+, it can still stop working as advertised regarding TIDAL integration, as well as any other streaming services it may integrate at some point or another. AmosM 1 No electron left behind. Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted July 25, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 25, 2018 48 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Can you tell a bit more about why you hate it. Just curious to read all the perspectives. No right or wrong. Traditional subscriptions to magazines and newspapers make sense, because the consumer is receiving a tangible item that is produced periodically. If you terminate your subscription, you still own those magazines and newspapers you received. On-line subscriptions become more problematic (ask your librarian and you will likely get an earful) because you are paying for access. In the case of scientific journals, if the fee goes up too high, or the journal goes out of business, etc., the library has no hard-copy of the journal to show for its investment, and more importantly, access to published information is curtailed. But this is true for any on-line subscription to newspapers, journals, magazines, etc. (It is also true of subscriptions to Netflix, but there really isn't any expectation that the material should be available in perpituity. Really what Netflix is selling is subscription access to their library.) In the case of software, you are paying for a limited period of use. So in principle this should be no different from renting a car or chain saw, because you only pay for the period in which you use it, and there is no reason why, if next Tuesday, you are denied access to the rental car or chain-saw, that would impact your prior investment. In the case of proprietary rental software, especially where the user creates content, it crosses the line into ransom-ware. Let me give an example. Academics often use reference-management software to handle journal articles. In a sense it works a lot like iTunes, and some of these are even built from the same code base. But some of these are moving to a subscription model (End Note, Sente), and worse, if they go belly-up (like Sente), your lifetime-accumulated library of references is locked into a proprietary format and is inaccessible. (This just happened to my wife, so it isn't an abstraction). It would be as if you had purchased a bunch of music and could only play it with iTunes, and one day Apple decided it would start charging you $10/month to access your own (purchased and downloaded) music, or worse, went out of business or decided to stop your access for whatever reason. You are out of luck. Word processing programs are another example. Traditionally they save your document in a proprietary format. Microsoft has loosened this up a bit, and other programs can now open their files (albeit with imperfect formatting results). But the idea that you can write a document, but have to pay a subscription fee 10 years later if you need to access your very own content, is objectionable. Rental software basically puts you at the mercy of the software company. It is probably worse in the case of End Note and Adobe than it is for the music player options, but not far from it. (Adobe is particularly evil in this regard, and mislead my wife into thinking she was paying once for a fixed-term (one month) access, but instead we got a reoccurring charge on our credit card, adding insult to injury, because you don't use the software if you wrongly conclude you aren't paying a continual subscription). Basically, it is yet another mechanism for someone to stick a quasi-permanent siphon hose into your bank account. I don't mind paying for access to a rent a car or chain saw, but I want to be able to do it on my own terms, including a fixed term of my own choosing. (I avoid cell phone plans for the same reason, BTW.) These are also all arguments in favor of GNU GPL and similar Free Software licensed solutions. I'm not a purist by any means, but I do see the advantages. The Computer Audiophile, senorx, AudioDoctor and 4 others 4 1 2 Link to comment
rodrigaj Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 I almost bought a Lumin unit just because of my love affair with the Lumin app, which I used for 4 years with Bubbleupnp Server. Reason prevailed. I bought an ultraRendu because of their hardware support (I had owned an original Sonore Rendu). With the ultraRendu, I now have a host of software options available to me - free, rental, purchased - including Lumin app. FWIW, I've settled down with A+ / A+Remote. It's not as user friendly as Lumin App, but the combination of the ultraRendu and A+ has a very satisfactory sound quality in my system. I even went so far as to buy a stand alone Mac Mini to run A+ on my LAN. My preference is to buy the software although I am not opposed to the Roon-like model. I don't see myself "buying" Roon, but I like to know I have that option. Bottom line for me: buy the most flexible hardware, try a bunch of software, buy when you can, and rent when the market is uncertain. The Computer Audiophile 1 "The function of music is to release us from the tyranny of conscious thought", Sir Thomas Beecham. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Good post by Dr. Scott -- except ... what happened to JStor? for areas of public interest, the exclusion of the public is another problem, esp. since they are often paying for the research Link to comment
Popular Post tmtomh Posted July 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 26, 2018 3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Can you tell a bit more about why you hate it. Just curious to read all the perspectives. No right or wrong. Sure! I don't know if anyone else shares my feeling/reason, but the main issue for me is that I don't like the feeling of having to pay constantly for something that allows me to use and enjoy other stuff that I already own. To me it's like having to pay monthly for the SSD inside my laptop: I own the laptop, and I own the data/files on the SSD, so I don't want those two things to become useless or inaccessible if I stop paying rent on the SSD. And I don't want my enjoyment of my laptop and data/files to be ruined by the SSD rent getting increased to a point where I get angry or upset every time I use it and have to think about the SSD-rental company holding me hostage. I realize it's an imperfect analogy, and I realize that software, more than hardware and even more than the actual music files, is arguably the most sensible link in the chain for a monthly rental model, since in most cases you can stop using the software and find an inexpensive or free substitute. And I also get that unlike music files, and (with the exception of firmware updates) unlike hardware, software requires ongoing maintenance and updating, and so it makes sense for developers to have steady, reliable sources of income. It also cuts down on their marketing costs, since they don't have to spend big money on marketing campaigns to get people to buy each new major release of the software. But I find it telling that Roon, for example, has a "lifetime subscription" option that's really just a conventional purchase option. I think there's something very appealing about the buy-once-and-forget-it model - or to put it another way, I think it's a bit of a mind-shift to think of software as a service rather than a product. Ralf11, 4est, wgscott and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
feelingears Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Consumer software devs today have to–have to–keep up with OS updates (not to mention Ux improvements and bug fixes), and you know how fast those come. And again, you "have to" upgrade, eventually. But the devs have to keep up all the time, period. Surprise: This costs money. Along with support for non-technical users (of which there are many on a spectrum of ability and desire to use that ability). Some things in audio I'll bend over backward for; others not so much. I put software far into the latter category, so I'll pay but I expect support when things don't "just work." Thus I no longer think I own software, any software. I'm merely renting/licensing it until the day business realities (e.g., competition, developers losing interest or passing away, etc.) force my relationship to change. I will definitely cry the day I'm forced to replace my favorite calendar software for Macs and iOS (BUSYCAL!!!) because it's so clearly the best for me (why others don't get it is unfathomable). And so, one must/should factor in a company's ability to support their software when purchasing the hardware. Based on threads here, a particularly popular bookshelf speaker system that has a "wireless" option is notable for their apparent disregard for software and their customer's overall product Ux. I've heard the speakers and they easily deserve their sonic accolades, but I won't touch 'em because the mfg does not demonstrate hardware AND software acumen. I prefer to use my audio time listening, not troubleshooting. This hobby's demographics probably don't map well to that of software subscribers, and it's too bad because this hobby needs to scale true hardware and software talent with commensurate organizational chops. The Computer Audiophile 1 Sum>Frankenstein: JPlay/Audirvana/iTunes, Uptone EtherRegen+LPS-1.2, Rivo Streamer+Uptone JS-2, Schiit Yggdrasil LiM+Shunyata Delta XC, Linn LP12/Hercules II/Ittok/Denon DL-103R, ModWright LS 100, Pass XA25, Tellurium Black II, Monitor Audio Silver 500 on IsoAcoustics Gaias, Shunyata Delta XC, Transparent Audio, P12 power regenerator, and positive room attributes. Link to comment
firedog Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Was a JRiver user and went over to Roon - lifetime subscription. The JRiver model is a good one in terms of the economics. You don't have to upgrade if you don't feel like the newer versions are providing a feature you want. Obviously if there are changes like security upgrades or large OS architecture changes and the like, you probably need to upgrade. I simply found Roon better fit my needs. I hesitated, but once I saw that it looked like it was catching on, I bought a lifetime (at a discount) subscription. I basically figured it like this: The lifetime subscription is the cost of 4 years (in my case 3) of a yearly subscription. So as long as Roon stays in business a few years, I break even. Every additional year they are in business, my average yearly cost goes down. If they stay in business 10 years or more, the yearly cost of the software is pretty small, and at the level of JRiver + upgrades. If we get to that point I'll really feel like I've gotten more than my money's worth. It's a bit difficult to compare the price of a program like Roon to some of the other programs, because it's sort of comparing apples and oranges. Roon is web based, and they apparently pay quite substantial fees for features like Tidal integration and metadata updates. In the end, either you find it's features compelling and worth their price, or you don't. I'm guessing most people who try Roon and don't buy/rent it don't really find it's web based features that compelling, so it isn''t a good value for them. So far I'm pretty happy with my decision. Roon has regular upgrades which improve the user experience and the team there have added LOTS of features over the last few years. I'm sure that at least 2 of the updates are so significant that if Roon was on a model like JRiver I would already have paid at least a couple of times for an upgrade. The Computer Audiophile 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
MrUnderhill Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 The SQ I get from standard resolution Qobuz is excellent. Local streaming is a smidge better, if it is a good CD source; not always the case. Keeping files locally requires an investment in hardware and time. This may not be worthwhile for some. Streaming services can drop music that you enjoy, as has happened to me a few times. Also comms issues can make the service unavailable, and also drop the quality on occasion. Another issue may be changes in technology. For instance, I use a NOS DAC. Should MQA become a de-facto standard this may effect what is available via a service I choose to use, my own files will be consistent. I am happy with the mixture. I want to have the recordings that I choose, not just those that are available via the service provider. However, the service allows me to listen at ease to a mountain of music and expand my knowledge and experience. Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 I've been spending a lot for audio software, and most of it I do not use anymore, like Amarra (that was crazy expensive with all add-ons), Audirvana, Fidelia, and so on. Would it be for rent I would save some part of money. Link to comment
4est Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 2 hours ago, firedog said: Was a JRiver user and went over to Roon - lifetime subscription. The JRiver model is a good one in terms of the economics. You don't have to upgrade if you don't feel like the newer versions are providing a feature you want. Obviously if there are changes like security upgrades or large OS architecture changes and the like, you probably need to upgrade. I simply found Roon better fit my needs. I hesitated, but once I saw that it looked like it was catching on, I bought a lifetime (at a discount) subscription. I basically figured it like this: The lifetime subscription is the cost of 4 years (in my case 3) of a yearly subscription. So as long as Roon stays in business a few years, I break even. Every additional year they are in business, my average yearly cost goes down. If they stay in business 10 years or more, the yearly cost of the software is pretty small, and at the level of JRiver + upgrades. If we get to that point I'll really feel like I've gotten more than my money's worth. It's a bit difficult to compare the price of a program like Roon to some of the other programs, because it's sort of comparing apples and oranges. Roon is web based, and they apparently pay quite substantial fees for features like Tidal integration and metadata updates. In the end, either you find it's features compelling and worth their price, or you don't. I'm guessing most people who try Roon and don't buy/rent it don't really find it's web based features that compelling, so it isn''t a good value for them. So far I'm pretty happy with my decision. Roon has regular upgrades which improve the user experience and the team there have added LOTS of features over the last few years. I'm sure that at least 2 of the updates are so significant that if Roon was on a model like JRiver I would already have paid at least a couple of times for an upgrade. IIRC, your software would have to last for nearly twenty years to equal JRiver's cost with upgrades being $25 annually. Does it really cost a lot to have Tidal integration? I honestly want to know. Perhaps I am in the minority, but I really do not care for Roon. I only use it because of the Tidal integration for HQPlayer. As good as Roon is for piecing together files cohesively, their search function sucks at any interpretations, and you cannot even copy/paste into or out of their program to get the exact spelling correctly as is required. coke 1 Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
rando Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 @The Computer Audiophile My take on your subject matter differs slightly. Particularly where you angle for us to fill out our own questions after spinning a marketing quiz as casual conversation. Despite having reservations, I will however take opportunity to fill out my own questions. How fully do you plan to exploit this if given free rein to orchestrate structured plans through your web entities? As an example I'll reference how cell data is given primary and tertiary prominence. Tower owner, slightly above secondary importance large competitor, and thirdly all remaining capability is dished out to sub-contractors with promises (tied to reduction of fee schedule if not met) to meet set minimum functionality standards. Pretty tight regulation of how good service is and how often requests for signal updates get answered. Do you ever really buy software or just rent it like combustibles and comestibles? I know some people borrow software, but that probably isn't relevant here. At what point on the CA road map does acquiring a software occur? What is the preferred business model of monetizing it? Are you currently hiring developers to be placed in positions at a future date? Have you explored this avenue at any point previously through paid studies or applying for outside funding? 5. Bonus question: Who do you think would win between the two of us in an international online forms + fees dash to claim commercial ownership of "C.A.S.H."???? Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted July 26, 2018 Author Share Posted July 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, rando said: @The Computer Audiophile My take on your subject matter differs slightly. Particularly where you angle for us to fill out our own questions after spinning a marketing quiz as casual conversation. Despite having reservations, I will however take opportunity to fill out my own questions. How fully do you plan to exploit this if given free rein to orchestrate structured plans through your web entities? As an example I'll reference how cell data is given primary and tertiary prominence. Tower owner, slightly above secondary importance large competitor, and thirdly all remaining capability is dished out to sub-contractors with promises (tied to reduction of fee schedule if not met) to meet set minimum functionality standards. Pretty tight regulation of how good service is and how often requests for signal updates get answered. Do you ever really buy software or just rent it like combustibles and comestibles? I know some people borrow software, but that probably isn't relevant here. At what point on the CA road map does acquiring a software occur? What is the preferred business model of monetizing it? Are you currently hiring developers to be placed in positions at a future date? Have you explored this avenue at any point previously through paid studies or applying for outside funding? 5. Bonus question: Who do you think would win between the two of us in an international online forms + fees dash to claim commercial ownership of "C.A.S.H."???? I have no idea what you’re talking about but I hope it’s supposed to be funny. Can you explain it for those of us who are slow? wgscott 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
rando Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Anecdotal response to non-site related request for consumer insight? Obviously it didn't pique your sense of humor. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted July 26, 2018 Author Share Posted July 26, 2018 Just now, rando said: Anecdotal response to non-site related request for consumer insight? Obviously it didn't pique your sense of humor. Um, OK. wgscott 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
rando Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Let me then ask you what your intent was in addressing the issue of how we consume software? Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted July 26, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, rando said: Let me then ask you what your intent was in addressing the issue of how we consume software? As I said in the wrap-up. "There are many more nuances to each model and many more pros & cons. I'd love to hear from the Community about its thoughts and any "purchasing" decisions individuals have made based on any of these factors. Has anyone selected hardware because of software or vice versa? Did the model of acquisition sway your decision?" This has zero to do with market research or some veiled proxy for companies in the industry. CA is a community and I like to encourage discussion in the community about topics of interest. Software acquisition is very important to many people and I'm encourage by the detailed responses received thus far. It's also a topic that comes up frequently. It will be easy to direct people to this article for a little background and a central location for discussion. wgscott and Mark Dirac 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
firedog Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 11 hours ago, tmtomh said: But I find it telling that Roon, for example, has a "lifetime subscription" option that's really just a conventional purchase option. True, except that if they go out of business you lose much of the functionality. 1 hour ago, 4est said: IIRC, your software would have to last for nearly twenty years to equal JRiver's cost with upgrades being $25 annually. I don't assume the price won't go up over twenty years, or that I won't have to pay for a new full version at least once or twice in 20 years. The risk of those scenarios is probably higher than the risk I'm taking buying a "lifetime" (4-5 years worth of yearly subscriptions) in Roon. tmtomh 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
firedog Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 4 hours ago, MrUnderhill said: Should MQA become a de-facto standard this may effect what is available via a service I choose to use, my own files will be consistent. Or you can just use a playback system that does "first unfold" in software/web app. Then it probably won't matter if you have an MQA DAC or not. tmtomh 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted July 26, 2018 Author Share Posted July 26, 2018 Talking about software 20 years from now is like talking about which curtains you want for your house on Mars. Sure we'll get there (Mars and software in 20 years), but the topics of discussion will likely be a bit different :~) tmtomh 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
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