Next PC Upgrade to Improve Sound

[gordec]

Long time lurker just joined. I have been playing with headphones, amps and dacs for a while. It's not until recently that I started to notice how dramatically PC noise and poor USB ports can affect SQ. I was able to notice a difference when I unplug all the peripherals from my USB 2.0 ports and only use a single port for DAC. Currently I'm runny Alienware R7 USB -> Chord Qutest -> McIntosh MHA100 -> Hifiman Susvara. I just bought a Paul Pang v2 card here and plan on powering it with ifi iPower 5V. I expect this to make a noticeable difference. Any other recommendations for simple upgrades that I can do? I'm thinking about get a 1T M.2 SSD to store most of the music. Right now I'm running all the files out of an internal 7200 RPM HDD. 

 

I'm debating whether I should just get a server like Auralic Mini or Femto, but I'd rather use my desktop for everything if the difference is small. 

[Ralf11]

if I were to go to a purpose made unit, I might well choose Linn

 

But there is no reason to believe that noise INSIDE a PC is a problem as long as you take care to ensure it does not affect the DAC.  This applies to the HDD vs. SSD debate also.

 

Two general principles:

 

1. Assure that everything before the DAC is galvanically isolated from the DAC

2. Reclocking

 

Find @jabbr's postings on use of optical to isolate the DAC.  That would be the first step.  Another option is the Schiit Eitr, but I don't think it will do DSD.

[rando]

Not sure if there is any merit to storing your catalog on a M.2 over a normal SSD or a spinning disc where SQ is concerned.  There are actually a lot of good reasons to look at the last two over NVMe or any other flavor of M.2.  Nothing wrong with experimenting to see what works best for your ears in your system. 

 

I am quite sure of almost stopping reading at Alienware.  No debate over what the weakest part of your system is.  

[gordec]

I guess the best solution is to get a server, but I feel that I could get as clean as of a sound from the PC. Right now just isolating the USB 2.0 ports just for Qutest is making a big difference. My guess is that if a dedicated USB PCIE card can just give any noticeable improvement, I'll be pretty happy. 

 

Given how OCD I'm, researching on a server will take a long time.

[One and a half]

Suggest to use a linear supply for the 5V instead of the ipower unit. I found it just as noisy as a standard smps, and substituting a linear supply made a noticeable difference to a imicro usb3’s performance.

[One and a half]

12 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

if I were to go to a purpose made unit, I might well choose Linn

 

But there is no reason to believe that noise INSIDE a PC is a problem as long as you take care to ensure it does not affect the DAC.  This applies to the HDD vs. SSD debate also.

 

Two general principles:

 

1. Assure that everything before the DAC is galvanically isolated from the DAC

2. Reclocking

 

Find @jabbr's postings on use of optical to isolate the DAC.  That would be the first step.  Another option is the Schiit Eitr, but I don't think it will do DSD.

Add 

 

3. Design the USB front end of the DAC so it doesn’t matter how bad the noise is, example Playback Designs PDFAS.

 

The Eitr doesn’t do DSD.

[Ralf11]

I agree.  mansr has also made that point.

 

http://playbackdesigns.com/#productsDream

 

I'm not very familiar with them, but apparently they do not need a PLL.  A search for Merlot on here will turn up several comments on that model.

[R1200CL]

13 hours ago, gordec said:

I guess the best solution is to get a server

 

Yes, and an endpoint. But I suppose you’re not using Roon ?

 

What equipment  do you have ?

 

Have you considered the iso regen from Uptone ?

[ElviaCaprice]

13 hours ago, gordec said:

I guess the best solution is to get a server, but I feel that I could get as clean as of a sound from the PC. Right now just isolating the USB 2.0 ports just for Qutest is making a big difference. My guess is that if a dedicated USB PCIE card can just give any noticeable improvement, I'll be pretty happy. 

 

Given how OCD I'm, researching on a server will take a long time.

Rob Watts would tell you a battery powered labtop using toslink to be your best choice.   I wouldn't agree, but for a low price solution it definitely has merit, otherwise you'll need to jump hard to surpass it from USB.  New clocked mobo (DIY) and clean power.

[Ralf11]

IIRC, @jabbr recently commented on Toslink and jitter - I won't try to repeat what I think he said as I'm not sure I recall it very well...

 

optical definitely solves one problem; maybe more (I use WiFi currently)

 

A lot depends on budget, desire & ability to DIY, the rate at which DAC technology evolves, etc.  I will also hazard a guess that orchestral music may put different 'strains' on a DAC than some other types (esp. headbanger stuff).

[gordec]

32 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Yes, and an endpoint. But I suppose you’re not using Roon ?

 

What equipment  do you have ?

 

Have you considered the iso regen from Uptone ?

 

Literally right now I'm just running PC USB -> Qutest -> MHA100. The Iso Regen still needs clean USB output though right? If my USB is noisy to start with, is iso regen enough. It's funny I have been in this hobby in a while. In the beginning you just look at the DACs, amps and headphones because they are sexy. No one really talks about noise and clean output. I have sold many DACs before I started to learn about noise. I wonder how pieces of equipment didn't get full evaluation due to the lack of understanding.

 

 

22 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Rob Watts would tell you a battery powered labtop using toslink to be your best choice.   I wouldn't agree, but for a low price solution it definitely has merit, otherwise you'll need to jump hard to surpass it from USB.  New clocked mobo (DIY) and clean power.

 

I do have a Surface Pro that never gets used. The challenge is that if I hook it up to Qutest, then there is no more USB to hook up external HDD to excess files. You think streaming off a NAS can work? 

 

To be honest my current setup sounds really good. Qutest -> MHA100 -> Susvara has amazing synergy. So much clean detail while maintaining weight and punch. Everything sounds very natural. I'm getting the Paul Pang card tomorrow. Lets see if I can notice any difference from the MB USB 2.0 ports.

[ElviaCaprice]

13 minutes ago, gordec said:

 

Literally right now I'm just running PC USB -> Qutest -> MHA100. The Iso Regen still needs clean USB output though right? If my USB is noisy to start with, is iso regen enough. It's funny I have been in this hobby in a while. In the beginning you just look at the DACs, amps and headphones because they are sexy. No one really talks about noise and clean output. I have sold many DACs before I started to learn about noise. I wonder how pieces of equipment didn't get full evaluation due to the lack of understanding.

 

 

 

I do have a Surface Pro that never gets used. The challenge is that if I hook it up to Qutest, then there is no more USB to hook up external HDD to excess files. You think streaming off a NAS can work? 

 

To be honest my current setup sounds really good. Qutest -> MHA100 -> Susvara has amazing synergy. So much clean detail while maintaining weight and punch. Everything sounds very natural. I'm getting the Paul Pang card tomorrow. Lets see if I can notice any difference from the MB USB 2.0 ports.

 

The PPA PCIe card will help, especially if you power it externally with a good LPSU.  Better would be ISO Regen, again clean power.  Better again is SOtM sCLK EX modified server or fixer/endpoint.    As you can see it's a large path as to how far you want to clean up that initialization of the audio stream.  Also be aware that on the other end of the Qutest, the amp, can have a negative effect on the Qutest.

 

Obviously, at any point stop and just enjoy the music.  There is always tomorrow for further quest.

[gordec]

10 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

 

The PPA PCIe card will help, especially if you power it externally with a good LPSU.  Better would be ISO Regen, again clean power.  Better again is SOtM sCLK EX modified server or fixer/endpoint.    As you can see it's a large path as to how far you want to clean up that initialization of the audio stream.  Also be aware that on the other end of the Qutest, the amp, can have a negative effect on the Qutest.

 

Obviously, at any point stop and just enjoy the music.  There is always tomorrow for further quest.

If I was to use ISO Regen, would you just plug it into any USB ports or it would be better to be fed with a PCIe USB card?

[ElviaCaprice]

8 minutes ago, gordec said:

If I was to use ISO Regen, would you just plug it into any USB ports or it would be better to be fed with a PCIe USB card?

I would use both the PPA PCIe card your getting and downsteam of that the ISO Regen, but note, now you need two power supplies, getting more expensive (LPS 1.2).  Ultimately get two USPCB's from Uptone and use instead of USB cables, may need to turn the Qutest in an odd angle, there is a 90degree USPCB.

 

If your going to cut corners on power supplies, my advice, don't do the upgrade.

[gordec]

3 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I would use both the PPA PCIe card your getting and downsteam of that the ISO Regen, but note, now you need two power supplies, getting more expensive (LPS 1.2).  Ultimately get two USPCB's from Uptone and use instead of USB cables, may need to turn the Qutest in an odd angle, there is a 90degree USPCB.

 

If your going to cut corners on power supplies, my advice, don't do the upgrade.

 

Thx. On various classifieds, you can usually find ISO regen with LPS for $550. That's not a bad investment. I'm thinking about using the iPower 5v I have sitting around right now for PPA Card. What do you think about this setup comparing to getting a server like Auralic Aries Mini and pop in a SSD? The Mini may provide just as clean as an output right? That's fairly inexpensive too.

[ElviaCaprice]

6 minutes ago, gordec said:

 

Thx. On various classifieds, you can usually find ISO regen with LPS for $550. That's not a bad investment. I'm thinking about using the iPower 5v I have sitting around right now for PPA Card. What do you think about this setup comparing to getting a server like Auralic Aries Mini and pop in a SSD? The Mini may provide just as clean as an output right? That's fairly inexpensive too.

Yes, no, maybe

Problem with going the route of those servers (auralic) is upgrades are limited.  Your stuck with their limitations.  

Your also stuck with the PC server, fixers for further upgrade, but at least this system is more friendly for a wide variation of software.  The only thing you can carry on down the upgrade path is power supplies.  So get good ones.  

There is an LPS-1 and LPS-1.2, obviously the 1.2 is the better one.  Doesn't hurt to experiment with those PS's.

[davide256]

 

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Yes, no, maybe

Problem with going the route of those servers (auralic) is upgrades are limited.  Your stuck with their limitations.  

Your also stuck with the PC server, fixers for further upgrade, but at least this system is more friendly for a wide variation of software.  The only thing you can carry on down the upgrade path is power supplies.  So get good ones.  

There is an LPS-1 and LPS-1.2, obviously the 1.2 is the better one.  Doesn't hurt to experiment with those PS's.

hmm, something ElviaCaprice and I agree on. In power supply for USB source, yes, if the V and I specs meet your needs, the LPS 1.2 can work marvels. And you can play with it later to power an RPI3 streamer with add on DD converter board if you want to dabble inexpensively with streaming over wifi.

[sandyk]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 4:22 AM, gordec said:

Long time lurker just joined. I have been playing with headphones, amps and dacs for a while. It's not until recently that I started to notice how dramatically PC noise and poor USB ports can affect SQ. I was able to notice a difference when I unplug all the peripherals from my USB 2.0 ports and only use a single port for DAC. Currently I'm runny Alienware R7 USB -> Chord Qutest -> McIntosh MHA100 -> Hifiman Susvara. I just bought a Paul Pang v2 card here and plan on powering it with ifi iPower 5V. I expect this to make a noticeable difference. Any other recommendations for simple upgrades that I can do? I'm thinking about get a 1T M.2 SSD to store most of the music. Right now I'm running all the files out of an internal 7200 RPM HDD. 

 

I'm debating whether I should just get a server like Auralic Mini or Femto, but I'd rather use my desktop for everything if the difference is small. 

 I wouldn't use that type of SSD for storing Audio as the M/B PSU noise is likely to audibly degrade results.

A better bet may be a normal SSD such as a Samsung 840 or  850 EVO, where you can use a cheap ebay voltage regulator PCB to provide a cleaner +5V from the internal +12V SMPS. In fact, I have found that doing this with the OS SSD results in an audible SQ improvement, even  when comparing the same audio files downloaded to both an internal HDD and the OS SSD with cleaner power..

 Incidentally, at just over $30 for this adjustable PSU , you won't be much out of pocket if it doesn't help much.

You will need to set it's output to +5V before plugging it into your SSD though

 

It's a Catch 22 situation, as an M2 SSD will markedly improve the speed of Video rendering etc. but is likely to result in no improvement in audio over your internal HDD.