the_doc735 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 ...at what cost silence (i.e. reduced ripple)? the HDPLEX 400W ATX Linear Power Supply (ATX) has a rated mV of 3 - 5,HDPLEX-Fanless-400W-ATX-Linear-Power-Supply-with-Modular-ATX-Output my seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 Watt MPSU (ATX) has a rated mV of 10 and below,[H]ardOCP: Seasonic Flagship PRIME 750W Power Supply Review the HD PLEX costs around £422 more than my Prime Ultra (smps); is the reduction of around 5mV worth the extra £422? ...would it even be noticeable in a blind audio/sound test? ...how great is the difference between 5 and 10 mV of ripple noise? THIS IS FOR: Asus (based) HTPC: Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151 + Asus ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1050 (2GB) + ASUS x24 DVDCD Re-Writer with M-DISC Support DRW-24D5M + Intel® Core™ i7-6700K 6700K - 4GHz Quad-Core 6th Gen. Socket 1151 Processor + Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW + Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K + Seasonic Prime Ultra ‘80+’ Titanium 650 Watt MPSU + Lian Li PC-C50B Black Aluminium Micro ATX Media Centre HTPC Case. Silverstone SST-AR06 Argon PWM CPU Cooler 92mm Fan. Nanoxia Deep Silence 120mm PWM Ultra-Quiet PC Fans, 650-1500 RPM (x3). This is dedicated to Hi-Fi music reproduction ONLY! + external DAC/valve amp & speakers. the PC is entirely digital, no analogue. The DAC is external and connected over pink faun i2s (HDMI format/ not cat5 ethernet format). ...many thanks in advance for all opinions offered! Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, the_doc735 said: ..how great is the difference between 5 and 10 mV of ripple noise? 5mV (sorry couldn't resist) I think the answer will depend on who you ask. Apart from the ways you mentioned there are very inexpensive ways to reduce ripple such as with JLH shunt regulators which I have heard and believe do make a difference. The expert is @sandyk who will likely comment soon. Good luck Doc Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: 5mV (sorry couldn't resist) I think the answer will depend on who you ask. Apart from the ways you mentioned there are very inexpensive ways to reduce ripple such as with JLH shunt regulators which I have heard and believe do make a difference. The expert is @sandyk who will likely comment soon. Good luck Doc Many members in other areas of the forum, are reporting very worthwhile improvements when using PSUs with ripple in the low MicroVolt area. For powering lower current demand devices, the LT3045 Voltage Regulators and their parallel higher current versions which have a noise level of 0.8uV (!) are getting a lot of rave reviews for their performance improvements. They can often be used in conjunction with PSUs like the OP mentioned. Also check out the Uptone area of the forum for example. Audiophile Neuroscience 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 22 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: 5mV (sorry couldn't resist) I think the answer will depend on who you ask. Apart from the ways you mentioned there are very inexpensive ways to reduce ripple such as with JLH shunt regulators which I have heard and believe do make a difference. The expert is @sandyk who will likely comment soon. Good luck Doc thank you, please elaborate, I'm not an expert! Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, sandyk said: Many members in other areas of the forum, are reporting very worthwhile improvements when using PSUs with ripple in the low MicroVolt area. For powering lower current demand devices, the LT3045 Voltage Regulators and their parallel higher current versions which have a noise level of 0.8uV (!) are getting a lot of rave reviews for their performance improvements. They can often be used in conjunction with PSUs like the OP mentioned. Also check out the Uptone area of the forum for example. thank you, please elaborate, I'm not an expert! Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 35 minutes ago, the_doc735 said: thank you, please elaborate, I'm not an expert! I don't claim to be an expert either, but well respected E.E. John Swenson has presented several well received Low Noise PSU designs that are available from Uptone. I suggest that you read the numerous reports in this area in the Uptone section of this forum, as well as checking the supplied performance specifications. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 12 hours ago, sandyk said: I don't claim to be an expert either, but well respected E.E. John Swenson has presented several well received Low Noise PSU designs that are available from Uptone. I suggest that you read the numerous reports in this area in the Uptone section of this forum, as well as checking the supplied performance specifications. cheers! Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 Uptone PSU nearly £700, that's even more than the HDplex @ £580. Don't think that will be on my shopping list any time soon, somehow! https://uptoneaudio.com/products/js-2-linear-power-supply Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 HDMI format might be the weak link (?) Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 Can't find anything in a search for seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 Watt MPSU/ shunt regulators. No references found? I wouldn't have a clue regarding how to use a shunt regulator with the seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 Watt MPSU. And if they are such a good idea, why didn't seasonic incorporate this into the PSU design? Cheers! Link to comment
mansr Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 The ATX power supply is feeding various on-board regulators (many switching) providing the 1-3.3 V needed by various chips. There are also on-chip LDO regulators. 10 mV ripple should pose no problem for these. Some of them might even have higher ripple on their outputs. With your setup, the I2S master clock is the critical part. One would hope they've made sure it has good voltage regulators. Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, the_doc735 said: Can't find anything in a search for seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 Watt MPSU/ shunt regulators. No references found? I wouldn't have a clue regarding how to use a shunt regulator with the seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 Watt MPSU. And if they are such a good idea, why didn't seasonic incorporate this into the PSU design? Cheers! Shunt regulators are mainly used with DIY and Scientific applications where low noise and a highly stable voltage is needed. They add more cost and are normally used in conjunction with the main PSU to power more sensitive areas. You can also use a series regulator inside a PC (room permitting) to derive a much lower noise, and isolated) +5V supply for items such as an internal SSD from the main +12V SMPS. Attached is a photo of an inexpensive ebay regulator used for this purpose by several members. https://www.radio-electronics.com/info/power-management/linear-power-supply-psu/shunt-voltage-regulator-theory-circuit.php How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 1 hour ago, mansr said: The ATX power supply is feeding various on-board regulators (many switching) providing the 1-3.3 V needed by various chips. There are also on-chip LDO regulators. 10 mV ripple should pose no problem for these. Some of them might even have higher ripple on their outputs. With your setup, the I2S master clock is the critical part. One would hope they've made sure it has good voltage regulators. thank you Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 1 hour ago, sandyk said: Shunt regulators are mainly used with DIY and Scientific applications where low noise and a highly stable voltage is needed. They add more cost and are normally used in conjunction with the main PSU to power more sensitive areas. You can also use a series regulator inside a PC (room permitting) to derive a much lower noise, and isolated) +5V supply for items such as an internal SSD from the main +12V SMPS. Attached is a photo of an inexpensive ebay regulator used for this purpose by several members. https://www.radio-electronics.com/info/power-management/linear-power-supply-psu/shunt-voltage-regulator-theory-circuit.php R U saying that I can use the LT3045 Voltage Regulators to improve the seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 Watt MPSU's performance? I can't find any like your picture? These are on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=LT3045+Voltage+Regulator&_sacat=0&_oac=1&LH_PrefLoc=2 ...these on ebay look like they need to be soldered somewhere inside SMPS (seasonic)? Not connected in line to the SSD (mine are M.2 NVMe format B.T.W./not SATA plug), also the optical drive, i2s card, and graphics card power supply cables etc? These cables consist of 4 - 8 conductors (not 2 +/-). Sounds intriguing, but I'm still puzzled regarding the connections/wiring/installation process? Many thanks for this suggestion! Could use a video tutorial right now! Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 38 minutes ago, the_doc735 said: R U saying that I can use the LT3045 Voltage Regulators to improve the seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 Watt MPSU's performance? I can't find any like your picture? These are on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=LT3045+Voltage+Regulator&_sacat=0&_oac=1&LH_PrefLoc=2 ...these on ebay look like they need to be soldered somewhere inside SMPS (seasonic)? Not connected in line to the SSD (mine are M.2 NVMe format B.T.W./not SATA plug), also the optical drive, i2s card, and graphics card power supply cables etc? These cables consist of 4 - 8 conductors (not 2 +/-). Sounds intriguing, but I'm still puzzled regarding the connections/wiring/installation process? Many thanks for this suggestion! Could use a video tutorial right now! No, they can't be used directly due to only having a maximum current of .5A. They are designed mainly to replace existing Linear voltage regulators in consumer gear, and also in VERY low noise specialised applications. They do have " big brothers" (several parallel LT3045)capable of higher currents but they take up quite a bit of room due to needing relatively large heatsinks to dissipate excess heat.. The ebay voltage regulator that I showed has only 40uV noise and could be powered from an existing larger PSU for use with low current devices such as SSDs and USB internal cards etc. It can make a small but worthwhile SQ improvement even when powering the OS SSD in a P.C. To use it, you would need to connect it to a +12V supply for example,) and adjust it's output to +5V using a DMM. A 4pin Molex to SATA PSU lead can be cut in half to connect it. However , that is not possible in your case due to the type of SSD etc. that you are using. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 45 minutes ago, sandyk said: No, they can't be used directly due to only having a maximum current of .5A. They are designed mainly to replace existing Linear voltage regulators in consumer gear, and also in VERY low noise specialised applications. They do have " big brothers" (several parallel LT3045)capable of higher currents but they take up quite a bit of room due to needing relatively large heatsinks to dissipate excess heat.. The ebay voltage regulator that I showed has only 40uV noise and could be powered from an existing larger PSU for use with low current devices such as SSDs and USB internal cards etc. It can make a small but worthwhile SQ improvement even when powering the OS SSD in a P.C. To use it, you would need to connect it to a +12V supply for example,) and adjust it's output to +5V using a DMM. A 4pin Molex to SATA PSU lead can be cut in half to connect it. However , that is not possible in your case due to the type of SSD you are using. yes I get the idea now, many thanks! However reading reviews like this: https://www.kitguru.net/components/power-supplies/stefan/seasonic-prime-750w-titanium-power-supply-review/ ....it seems hard to believe that the voltage regs. can improve on these seasonic titanium ultra's performance. That's like saying that these 'bypass' voltage regs. are superior to the ones fitted inside the seasonic itself? would the sata & molex be the 12v input and output plugs or do you need to 'tap' into a 12v wire? Cheers! Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 31 minutes ago, the_doc735 said: yes I get the idea now, many thanks! However reading reviews like this: https://www.kitguru.net/components/power-supplies/stefan/seasonic-prime-750w-titanium-power-supply-review/ ....it seems hard to believe that the voltage regs. can improve on these seasonic titanium ultra's performance. That's like saying that these 'bypass' voltage regs. are superior to the ones fitted inside the seasonic itself? would the sata & molex be the 12v input and output plugs or do you need to 'tap' into a 12v wire? Cheers! These new LT3045 regulators when used within their current ratings are S.O.T.A. with the lowest noise ratings normally available. Unlike standard voltage regulators where high frequency SMPS ripple virtually sails straight through due to their much lower bandwidth, the LT3045 has a bandwidth of over 1MHZ With the ebay 40uV voltage regulator, if you use a cut in half lead as shown, it's input plugs directly into a spare 4pin Molex connector, and it's output directly into the SATA device to be powered with +5V. You can do a little better than the LT1963 ebay regulator, but not at such a low price. If you aren't happy with the results then you won't be much out of pocket. LT3045 Ultralow RMS Noise: 0.8μVRMS (10Hz to 100kHz) nn Ultralow Spot Noise: 2nV/√Hz at 10kHz nn Ultrahigh PSRR: 76dB at 1MHz nn Output Current: 500mA nn Wide Input Voltage Range: 1.8V to 20V How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 52 minutes ago, sandyk said: These new LT3045 regulators when used within their current ratings are S.O.T.A. with the lowest noise ratings normally available. Unlike standard voltage regulators where high frequency SMPS ripple virtually sails straight through due to their much lower bandwidth, the LT3045 has a bandwidth of over 1MHZ With the ebay 40uV voltage regulator, if you use a cut in half lead as shown, it's input plugs directly into a spare 4pin Molex connector, and it's output directly into the SATA device to be powered with +5V. You can do a little better than the LT1963 ebay regulator, but not at such a low price. If you aren't happy with the results then you won't be much out of pocket. LT3045 Ultralow RMS Noise: 0.8μVRMS (10Hz to 100kHz) nn Ultralow Spot Noise: 2nV/√Hz at 10kHz nn Ultrahigh PSRR: 76dB at 1MHz nn Output Current: 500mA nn Wide Input Voltage Range: 1.8V to 20V many thanks, most grateful to you for staying with me on this issue! ...do you have a URL for that regulator. still can't find it? I know it's not useable with my M.2 NVMe SSD's, but their are other devices that may benefit from a voltage reg. I NOTE: There are some that are adjustable/variable voltage, and both +/-, whichever you require. Cheers! Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 2 hours ago, the_doc735 said: many thanks, most grateful to you for staying with me on this issue! ...do you have a URL for that regulator. still can't find it? I know it's not useable with my M.2 NVMe SSD's, but their are other devices that may benefit from a voltage reg. I NOTE: There are some that are adjustable/variable voltage, and both +/-, whichever you require. Cheers! https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ultra-low-Noise-40uV-Adjustable-Voltage-Regulator-Module-1-25-20V-1-5-Amp/1977595044.html How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Abtr Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 11 hours ago, sandyk said: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ultra-low-Noise-40uV-Adjustable-Voltage-Regulator-Module-1-25-20V-1-5-Amp/1977595044.html That's a big cap (1000μF) across the output. The datasheet of the LT1963 says 10μF is enough at 40μVRMS output noise. Could this large value improve transient response? The LT1963 datasheet says it is optimized for fast transient response, and also protection diodes are not required. Current audio system Link to comment
davide256 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 11:54 PM, the_doc735 said: ...at what cost silence (i.e. reduced ripple)? the HDPLEX 400W ATX Linear Power Supply (ATX) has a rated mV of 3 - 5,HDPLEX-Fanless-400W-ATX-Linear-Power-Supply-with-Modular-ATX-Output my seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 Watt MPSU (ATX) has a rated mV of 10 and below,[H]ardOCP: Seasonic Flagship PRIME 750W Power Supply Review the HD PLEX costs around £422 more than my Prime Ultra (smps); is the reduction of around 5mV worth the extra £422? ...would it even be noticeable in a blind audio/sound test? ...how great is the difference between 5 and 10 mV of ripple noise? THIS IS FOR: Asus (based) HTPC: Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151 + Asus ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1050 (2GB) + ASUS x24 DVDCD Re-Writer with M-DISC Support DRW-24D5M + Intel® Core™ i7-6700K 6700K - 4GHz Quad-Core 6th Gen. Socket 1151 Processor + Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW + Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K + Seasonic Prime Ultra ‘80+’ Titanium 650 Watt MPSU + Lian Li PC-C50B Black Aluminium Micro ATX Media Centre HTPC Case. Silverstone SST-AR06 Argon PWM CPU Cooler 92mm Fan. Nanoxia Deep Silence 120mm PWM Ultra-Quiet PC Fans, 650-1500 RPM (x3). This is dedicated to Hi-Fi music reproduction ONLY! + external DAC/valve amp & speakers. the PC is entirely digital, no analogue. The DAC is external and connected over pink faun i2s (HDMI format/ not cat5 ethernet format). ...many thanks in advance for all opinions offered! this might help you see some of what matters in an audiophile grade DC power supply. You should try Allo Bridge or Digione with a good one using your PC as a UPNP server... my HDPlex 100 is retired as not competitive with the SoTM SPS500 and Uptone Audio LPS 1.2 when it comes to improving clarity at all points of the recorded dynamic range. https://audiobacon.net/2018/07/11/paul-hynes-sr4-the-worlds-best-audiophile-power-supply/ Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
look&listen Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 14 hours ago, the_doc735 said: do you have a URL for that regulator. (Alexey) .5 & 1A modules - https://www.ebay.com/sch/alexey.ivanov/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= (Stammheim) 1.5A, 3A & 5A modules - https://www.mpaudio.net/power-supplies, diyaudio discussions Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Abtr said: That's a big cap (1000μF) across the output. The datasheet of the LT1963 says 10μF is enough at 40μVRMS output noise. Could this large value improve transient response? The LT1963 datasheet says it is optimized for fast transient response, and also protection diodes are not required. Just because the Data sheets say that protection diodes are not needed, does NOT mean they shouldn't be used. In this suggested application, Ultra Fast transient response is not needed due to the numerous other smaller value capacitors used, and that the incoming +12V from the SMPS will already have acceptably low ripple The main advantage that this PSU gives is the further improved isolation between the SSD and other areas via the +12V supply . If you want a further improvement in Input filtering when used for a +5V output with a 12V input you can also use my modified schematic, as A.C. input is not needed. The additional 100uF is readily mounted under the PCB and could be something like a 100uF Panasonic FC or FM. In any event, several members have already used this voltage regulator to power an SSD and reported an improvement. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 4 hours ago, davide256 said: this might help you see some of what matters in an audiophile grade DC power supply. You should try Allo Bridge or Digione with a good one using your PC as a UPNP server... my HDPlex 100 is retired as not competitive with the SoTM SPS500 and Uptone Audio LPS 1.2 when it comes to improving clarity at all points of the recorded dynamic range. https://audiobacon.net/2018/07/11/paul-hynes-sr4-the-worlds-best-audiophile-power-supply/ What is Allo Bridge or Digione & audio bacon? never heard of it till now? Link to comment
the_doc735 Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 4 hours ago, look&listen said: (Alexey) .5 & 1A modules - https://www.ebay.com/sch/alexey.ivanov/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= (Stammheim) 1.5A, 3A & 5A modules - https://www.mpaudio.net/power-supplies, diyaudio discussions how can these be used with audio PC's to replace a MPSU e.g. the connectors? Link to comment
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