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Advice on DAC upgrade


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30 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

 

Of course there are a few members around here who are a trap in the sense their advice is prejudiced to the point that it is worthless.

 

Yeah, I put you in that camp.

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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9 minutes ago, Richard Dale said:

I own both an iFi iDSD Nano, and an iFi Black Label Micro iDSD and I agree that they are both great ways to get started with HiRes audio. They handle all the formats including MQA with the latest firmware revisions, and are well under the OP's $1700 budget.

 

I'm not sure the audio science review links above are much use in choosing a DAC as they are just a bunch of measurements, with no description of what the DACs sound like as far as I can see. Instead I would recommend the Head Fi site which has a very wide participation of DAC owners with useful subjective reviews, including the two iFi DACs for instance.

 

Audio  Science Review is not the alpha and omega of audio, but it presents information not elsewhere available and provides food for thought.  They have not done a complete test on anything from ifi, by the way.

 

I also have recently acquired an ifi idsd nano black.  It's not being used as the manufacturer intended.  I have it hooked up line out to a power amp without a preamp.   Volume is controlled at the software player level.  Although that rules out DSD direct, it isn't a big deal.  It sounds better with my speakers (LS50) than my Grace M9xx.  Oddly, the Grace M9xx sounds better with HD650's than the nano black.  The Grace has about 3x more power in its headphone amp section.  Other than needing a less than perfect mechanically 3.5mm to RCA adapter for the nano black, it's great in the main system.  

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22 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

This is the argument all the Yggdrasil sycophants make as well. Make sense to me. Measure but be sure to listen. 

I am not advocating that one should buy a D30 and forget everything else because the D30 measures well and only costs $120.  What I do advocate is avoiding any gear that does not measure well.  If the Yaggi was DBT tested against some of these inexpensive DAC's which measure well, a lot of folks from the subjective camp would wet their pants.

 

It's your money, do what you like with it.

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30 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

I am not advocating that one should buy a D30 and forget everything else because the D30 measures well and only costs $120.  What I do advocate is avoiding any gear that does not measure well.  If the Yaggi was DBT tested against some of these inexpensive DAC's which measure well, a lot of folks from the subjective camp would wet their pants.

 

It's your money, do what you like with it.

 

Have you ever actually listened to a Yggy in your system?   How about that Topping DAC you are constantly dry humping?   Ever done any head to head comps in your system?  Oh wait, I'm sure you have....  l\

 

I could give a toss whether you like Schiit products but I am about 99% sure you are simply regurgitating the holy advice you get from Amir, like a loyal lap dog, rather than personal experience.

 

 

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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Just now, Blake said:

 

Have you ever actually listened to a Yggy in your system?   How about that Topping DAC you are constantly dry humping?   

I have not listened to either and I am not promoting the D30.  I have made no claims about the SQ of either unit.  Don't put words in my mouth, although I may as well expect that sort of behavior from you.  If you would like to lend me your Yaggi I would be happy to give you my assessment and return it to you in perfect shape.  

 

If find the Yaggi to be an enigma.  It measures poorly, but gets glowing reviews from paid reviewers.  Either they are all a bunch of deaf idiots, or distortion is the new Hi-Fi.  Some distortions are euphonic (tube gear), but what shows up in the Yaggi's measurements is not known to be.  The DAC chip used is specified by the manufacturer to not be suitable for audio.  It must be the balanced outputs that make up for it...

 

What would I know?  The most I ever spent on a DAC  is $280 for a refurbished Grace M9xx.  It's so so with speakers but kicks ass with HD650's and is said to be even better with HD800's.  I'm not poor, btw.

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8 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

It measures poorly, but gets glowing reviews from paid reviewers. 

 

According to Amir.  Others have debunked his measurements.

 

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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1 hour ago, Blake said:

 

According to Amir.  Others have debunked his measurements.

 

I doubt they have actually debunked anything.  Anyone can raise doubts.  That's what lawyers do all day long.  I ought to know.  In particular the so called debunking used a scale and frequency range which masked the problems.

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3 hours ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

If find the Yaggi to be an enigma.  It measures poorly, but gets glowing reviews from paid reviewers.

 

....and non-paid reviewers.

 

sometimes there's just not one explainable reason - usually a confluence of factors and an 'aligning of the stars' that makes something pleasing to so many people.  Take for example campfire audio Andromeda - it just hits everything and is appealing to so many people.  Even its creator, Ken Ball, is having a hard time topping that achievement - which came out years ago.  

 

I think yggy is one of those products.  If it measures with "some" distortion in the frequency domain, but blows away other DACs in the time domain (which there aren't sufficient measurement techniques for IMO) then that may be another reason.  Just an example, not saying that I know what it's time domain performance is (haven't critically listened to yggy, only very briefly at meet).

 

I genuinely feel that hardcore objectivists are missing out on the best possible experience because they've pigeonholed themselves with (again IMO) insufficient measurements. After all... this is (or should be) all about the music - not all about oscilloscope performance.  If both camps would have an open mind, the community would be better served.  

 

 

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7 minutes ago, buonassi said:

 

....and non-paid reviewers.

 

sometimes there's just not one explainable reason - usually a confluence of factors and an 'aligning of the stars' that makes something pleasing to so many people

 

 

Well, you don't have to be paid to love something.  An alignment of the stars, perhaps.

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On 6/27/2018 at 10:11 AM, Greg1717 said:

Budget wise, I’m looking to stay under $1,700

 

For that price, you're well in the range of a quality audiophile DAC.  For example, a Bryston BDA-2 (which I use) has been consistently rated audiophile Class A by Stereophile and you can get a used one for $1,500.  

 

https://www.hifishark.com/model/bryston-bda-2

 

I have no problem with a used DAC, what could possibly go wrong with it?  Bryston are well known and recognized for the superior implementation of their analog chip sets.  

 

 

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I’ve owned a few RME pieces, and still do.  As per the OP’s requirements, warm isn’t normally an RME attribute, but I haven’t heard the ADI-2.

Roon Rock->Auralic Aria G2->Schiit Yggdrasil A2->McIntosh C47->McIntosh MC301 Monos->Wilson Audio Sabrinas

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3 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

I’ve owned a few RME pieces, and still do.  As per the OP’s requirements, warm isn’t normally an RME attribute, but I haven’t heard the ADI-2.

A DAC has no business being warm. If warmth is desired, one should use DSP or possibly a tube based (pre)amp.

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On 7/1/2018 at 7:23 PM, buonassi said:

ASR lost me with their entire focus on oscilloscope measurements being the king-maker.  Measurements done this way cannot measure music, which is what a DAC's end goal is.  They measure perfect sine waves, square waves, etc (far from music) because they are known baselines.  With something like DiffMaker you can measure real music, but you have to have a baseline music passage done on a baseline/benchmarked DAC to compare it to others.  But those types of measurements at least pique my interest a bit.

 

Measurements are good and I've purchased a slew of cheap DACs that measure well. I've also built DACs.

 

The output stage is what separates the men from the boys.

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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On 7/2/2018 at 7:11 PM, Ron Scubadiver said:

What would I know?  The most I ever spent on a DAC  is $280 for a refurbished Grace M9xx.  It's so so with speakers but kicks ass with HD650's and is said to be even better with HD800's.  I'm not poor, btw.

 

You might try the iFi Micro BL ... not only does it measure great but the new output stage is very nice and for $600 it is an excellent value. My only complaint is that it does too much stuff but that said, if you ever decide to upgrade you can always find a use for it, portable etc.

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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1 hour ago, jabbr said:

 

You might try the iFi Micro BL ... not only does it measure great but the new output stage is very nice and for $600 it is an excellent value. My only complaint is that it does too much stuff but that said, if you ever decide to upgrade you can always find a use for it, portable etc.

Why not an ifi idac2 micro?  Some say it sounds better as a dac, it's less expensive and it has a Class A output stage.  I also want to avoid having a rechargeable battery.  It's a management problem because if it isn't discharged once in a while it will go bad. Besides, my Grace has already been moved to that other use as a desktop dac.  Just wondering.  

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6 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Measurements are good and I've purchased a slew of cheap DACs that measure well. I've also built DACs.

 

The output stage is what separates the men from the boys.

 

the analog output stage?

 

maybe they are allowing digital engineers to design analog circuits...

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17 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

the analog output stage?

 

maybe they are allowing digital engineers to design analog circuits...

There's a lot more to a DAC than the DA chip.  Power supply, input (usb especially) and analog outputs complete the package.  A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

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