$2000 Reference system

[jabbr]

Sennheiser HD800 Headphones: $1100 https://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-800-Reference-Dynamic-Headphone/dp/B001OTZ8DA

iFi iDSD Micro Black $600 https://www.amazon.com/iDSD-Black-Label-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B01MTNK3ZT/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1529515488&sr=1-3&keywords=ifi+micro+idsd+usb+dac

Massdrop Cavalli Tube Hybrid Headphone Amp: $250 : https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-alex-cavalli-cth-tube-hybrid-amp

Raspberry Pi 3 B+ as NAA: $35

Flirc Raspberry Pi Case $15

 

$2000

....

can upgrade power supplies, cables etc, add ISO Regen etc.

this assumes you already have a PC running HQPlayer/Roon and an 802.11ac wireless network

   -- could substitute Solid-Run Clearfog Base as NAA with fiberoptic network $145 https://www.solid-run.com/product/clearfog-base-1g-8g-e/

   -- alternative and cheaper headphone Massdrop K7XX headphone $200 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-akg-k7xx-red-edition

[GUTB]

Pretty low-end reference system, even for $2k. The headphones are heavily compromised by the electronics in this case.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

Pretty low-end reference system, even for $2k. The headphones are heavily compromised by the electronics in this case.

 

Your knowledge of electronics is lacking in this case. Feel free to suggest what in your opinion would be a better system for $2k.

 

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

Sennheiser HD800 Headphones: $1100 https://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-800-Reference-Dynamic-Headphone/dp/B001OTZ8DA

iFi iDSD Micro Black $600 https://www.amazon.com/iDSD-Black-Label-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B01MTNK3ZT/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1529515488&sr=1-3&keywords=ifi+micro+idsd+usb+dac

Massdrop Cavalli Tube Hybrid Headphone Amp: $250 : https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-alex-cavalli-cth-tube-hybrid-amp

Raspberry Pi 3 B+ as NAA: $35

Flirc Raspberry Pi Case $15

 

$2000

....

can upgrade power supplies, cables etc, add ISO Regen etc.

this assumes you already have a PC running HQPlayer/Roon and an 802.11ac wireless network

   -- could substitute Solid-Run Clearfog Base as NAA with fiberoptic network $145 https://www.solid-run.com/product/clearfog-base-1g-8g-e/

   -- alternative and cheaper headphone Massdrop K7XX headphone $200 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-akg-k7xx-red-edition

Pretty good. I think I would replace the Sennheiser HD800 headphones with the HiFiMan 'Ananda' for $1k and the Headphone amp with the amazing Schiit 'Asgard 2' for $250. But other than that, I pretty much agree with your recipe for high-end audio on the cheap. The best way to get GUTB to go along with your recommendations is to 10X all the prices. Do that and he will be on board. 

[mansr]

12 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Pretty good. I think I would replace the Sennheiser HD800 headphones with the HiFiMan 'Ananda' for $1k

I'd replace the headphones with a pair of active studio monitors.

[gmgraves]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

I'd replace the headphones with a pair of active studio monitors.

Oh sure. Were I going to go that route; speakers rather than 'phones. I agree. The Behringer B1031As sound excellent. To that I can attest and at $200 ea from Sweetwater, they can't be beat for price. In fact, by spending a bit less on 'phones (say the excellent $500 HiFiMan Susvara or equivalent) one could have both!

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B1031A--behringer-truth-b1031a-8-inch-powered-studio-monitor 

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Oh sure. Were I going to go that route; speakers rather than 'phones. I agree. The Behringer B1031As sound excellent. To that I can attest and at $200 ea from Sweetwater, they can't be beat for price. In fact, by spending a bit less on 'phones (say the excellent $500 HiFiMan Susvara or equivalent) one could have both!

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B1031A--behringer-truth-b1031a-8-inch-powered-studio-monitor 

 

Headphone preference seems to be an individual choice. I haven't heard studio monitors, including the Mackie HR824S which I own, that I find comparable to the HD800s or AKG k712s for that matter, but that may be my personal preference. In any case, regardless of how obsessed I am with electronics, I still devote perhaps 40-60% of my budget to the transducers.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

and the Headphone amp with the amazing Schiit 'Asgard 2' for $250.

 

Have you compared the Asgard 2 with the Cavalli CTH? Probably worth buying the Schiit for the name alone though ?

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Headphone preference seems to be an individual choice. I haven't heard studio monitors, including the Mackie HR824S which I own, that I find comparable to the HD800s or AKG k712s for that matter, but that may be my personal preference. In any case, regardless of how obsessed I am with electronics, I still devote perhaps 40-60% of my budget to the transducers.

I just find headphones unpleasant, both physically and acoustically. Agree on transducers being the most important component, regardless of type.

[esldude]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

I just find headphones unpleasant, both physically and acoustically. Agree on transducers being the most important component, regardless of type.

Amen brother!

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Headphone preference seems to be an individual choice.

 

Very true. I used to have the HD800-S cans. Now I use the cheaper MrSpeakers AEON Closed.

 

Sound great and measure incredibly well too.... very very low distortion...

 

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/mrspeakers-aeon-over-ear-sealed-planar-magnetic-headphones

 

With that savings on headphones, I'd upgrade the Pi3B+ to an Allo USBridge to feed the iDSD. They supply a USB-WiFi adapter if you prefer WiFi.

 

More savings and better transparency by leaving out the separate headphone amp and just driving the cans with the iDSD BL - maybe? No ground / leakage current loops to worry about too...

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

 

Have you compared the Asgard 2 with the Cavalli CTH? Probably worth buying the Schiit for the name alone though ?

I've compared them spec-wise (sort of). The thing about the Asgard 2 is that it's pure class A and it's output can swing 70 Volts. Most headphone amps can't do that - especially at anywhere near the Asgard 2's price. It sounds damn good. It's the best sound I've ever heard from the HiFiMan HE-1000 v.2 'phones. and I've driven them with a number of different headphone amps including some costing more than the phones. When I said that in my review, the folks at HiFiMan got somewhat miffed and said that I shouldn't review a $3000 headphone with a $250 headphone amp, but damn it, they sounded better with that amp than with any of the others including a $5K Wu tube amp!

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Your knowledge of electronics is lacking in this case. Feel free to suggest what in your opinion would be a better system for $2k.

 

That's easy, a better $2000 system to GUTB would be one that costs $20,000!?

[GUTB]

The HD800 is fatiguing so extra care in system matching must be made. For $2k I’d think about a used TH900 paired with a Questyle 400 to enjoy the super strong synergy between Fostex’s bio drivers and current mode amplification. Headphones that use the Fostex bio drivers (TH-xxx, AudioQuest, a few others) are unique in that they have very flat impedance / phase curves which makes them play very well with current mode amps.

 

Of course when we’re talking about systems power delivery and source are important and always get ignored. If stuck at 2$k you’d probably have to downgrade to a used AqudioQuest or Massdrop Fostex for some decent AC cables and source, even if it’s just some USB conditioning.

 

In regards to Schiit amps I’ve auditioned most of them; the one I ended up buying again and keeping for good was the Mjolnir 2. The problem with this amp is that the singe-ended output had noticeably degraded sound, so I went so far to get my TH900 modded with a balanced line just for the sake of keeping the M2. When I had the X20 DAC, the signal path was balanced front-to-end.

[jabbr]

10 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Very true. I used to have the HD800-S cans. Now I use the cheaper MrSpeakers AEON Closed.

 

Innerfidelity does like those! I’ll put these on my list to audition.

 

 

10 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

With that savings on headphones, I'd upgrade the Pi3B+ to an Allo USBridge to feed the iDSD. They supply a USB-WiFi adapter if you prefer WiFi.

 

The Pi3B+ has a seaparate chip for Wi-Fi so doesn’t share the Ethernet-USB issue.

 

Ive ordered a LT3045 based mezzanine PSU and will likely remove the onboard DC/DC converter ... 

 

10 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

More savings and better transparency by leaving out the separate headphone amp and just driving the cans with the iDSD BL - maybe? No ground / leakage current loops to worry about too...

 

I have found a better SQ with the headphone amp

 

10 hours ago, gmgraves said:

The thing about the Asgard 2 is that it's pure class A and it's output can swing 70 Volts. Most headphone amps can't do that - especially at anywhere near the Asgard 2's price. It sounds damn good. It's the best sound I've ever heard from the HiFiMan HE-1000 v.2 'phones

 

Thats worth a listen to!

[asdf1000]

5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I have found a better SQ with the headphone amp

 

Definitely adding a headphone amp can/will make it sound different. And some make like it sounding different but the HD800 cans aren't difficult to drive so adding the separate amp will lose transparency and add a different flavour to the sound. 

 

Nothing wrong with liking a different sound of course but you know what they say, no such thing as a free lunch, especially with adding components to the chain.

 

8 minutes ago, jabbr said:

The Pi3B+ has a seaparate chip for Wi-Fi so doesn’t share the Ethernet-USB issue.

Noted, I only mentioned USB-ethernet adapter for the USBridge, which doesn't have on-board WiFi at all, so you need the adapter if you want WiFi with the USBridge. Just in case someone else was wondering.

[davide256]

Snore...a mid fi sound because the source solution is so weak. At least use a microRendu. Pi and Allo are fun science projects but not reference quality... I didn't enjoy them without about $700 invested in reclocker and upgraded PS... whereas microRendu at $500 sings well without those upgrades. I'd still have mine if the highs had matched vinyl playback moving coil "air".

[jabbr]

10 hours ago, GUTB said:

For $2k I’d think about a used TH900 paired with a Questyle 400 to enjoy the super strong synergy between Fostex’s bio drivers and current mode amplification.

 

Since you've said that my choice heavily compromises the headphones with electronics, I find it rather odd that you hang your hat on a relatively unknown integrated DAC/amp whose website descriptions are literally in Chinese. Its possible that this is a great little piece of equipment, but against the iFi iDSD Micro BL, hardly a contender until we get much much more info. I'm not bothered that it only does DSD256.

[jabbr]

9 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Snore...a mid fi sound because the source solution is so weak. At least use a microRendu. Pi and Allo are fun science projects but not reference quality... I didn't enjoy them without about $700 invested in reclocker and upgraded PS... whereas microRendu at $500 sings well without those upgrades. I'd still have mine if the highs had matched vinyl playback moving coil "air".

 

Uh ... over Wifi 802.11ac, the Rpi 3 B+ does rather well, and for my application here, I want portability and small size. Possible to LT3045 power via a mezzanine. My full intention is to use this as a platform to see where things like PSU upgrades and USB reclocking give a benefit. That said, for $35 the RPi 3 B+ does surprisingly well, of course I'm streaming DSD512 through it so perhaps that's the key to making it sing.

 

But again, if you replace $35 with $500, what do you replace? Do you skimp on the headphones? Speakers? Use a $35 DAC? Do you think source is more important?

[davide256]

7 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Uh ... over Wifi 802.11ac, the Rpi 3 B+ does rather well, and for my application here, I want portability and small size. Possible to LT3045 power via a mezzanine. My full intention is to use this as a platform to see where things like PSU upgrades and USB reclocking give a benefit. That said, for $35 the RPi 3 B+ does surprisingly well, of course I'm streaming DSD512 through it so perhaps that's the key to making it sing.

 

But again, if you replace $35 with $500, what do you replace? Do you skimp on the headphones? Speakers? Use a $35 DAC? Do you think source is more important?

Source is most important...downstream equipment amplifies but "better" can't replace/fix what is missing/wrong from source.  I experience more bang for a life like

playback spending my audio buck  on gear closest to the source.  I would buy the microRendu and cut the headphone budget to $500~$600... you will hear more

enjoyable music that way. Spending over $600 on headphones means your money is wasted if you don't buy purposefully matched like quality components.

[jabbr]

2 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Source is most important...downstream equipment amplifies but "better" can't replace/fix what is missing/wrong from source.  I experience more bang for a life like

playback spending my audio buck  on gear closest to the source.  I would buy the microRendu and cut the headphone budget to $500~$600... you will hear more

enjoyable music that way. Spending over $600 on headphones means your money is wasted if you don't buy purposefully matched like quality components.

 

I strongly and entirely disagree. What is important is what comes out of the DAC. How it gets there is itself irrelevant.

 

You are missing the beauty of digital electronics. Digital can be reclocked, cleaned and reconstructed despite being transferred underneath the ocean or up into space and back down. 

 

Of course Im in the position to be able to compare $20,000 of equipment vs $1000 of equipment both going into the same headphones and I can assure you, despite my own obsession with electronics, the quality of the headphones is most important. The focus on source and AC cables is, IMNSHO, misguided.

[davide256]

17 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

I strongly and entirely disagree. What is important is what comes out of the DAC. How it gets there is itself irrelevant.

 

You are missing the beauty of digital electronics. Digital can be reclocked, cleaned and reconstructed despite being transferred underneath the ocean or up into space and back down. 

 

Of course Im in the position to be able to compare $20,000 of equipment vs $1000 of equipment both going into the same headphones and I can assure you, despite my own obsession with electronics, the quality of the headphones is most important. The focus on source and AC cables is, IMNSHO, misguided.

I went down a PC source path several years ago, even dabbled with HQPlayer recently. In  the end I found  them to be a HiFi sound, something an acoustic instrument musician

could not relish because they were all about transient attack and  deficient for vibrant tone color. So I can understand your source purchase decision bias but its not one that

will be universally satisfying. Tuba players like myself listen for bass tone color, not drum solos, its our bias ?

[The Computer Audiophile]

40 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Source is most important...downstream equipment amplifies but "better" can't replace/fix what is missing/wrong from source.  I experience more bang for a life like

playback spending my audio buck  on gear closest to the source.  I would buy the microRendu and cut the headphone budget to $500~$600... you will hear more

enjoyable music that way. Spending over $600 on headphones means your money is wasted if you don't buy purposefully matched like quality components.

 

30 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

I strongly and entirely disagree. What is important is what comes out of the DAC. How it gets there is itself irrelevant.

 

You are missing the beauty of digital electronics. Digital can be reclocked, cleaned and reconstructed despite being transferred underneath the ocean or up into space and back down. 

 

Of course Im in the position to be able to compare $20,000 of equipment vs $1000 of equipment both going into the same headphones and I can assure you, despite my own obsession with electronics, the quality of the headphones is most important. The focus on source and AC cables is, IMNSHO, misguided.

 

This is the beauty of an open forum without Ministers of Information. Two sides to the story, both very valid. 

 

My my belief is that sources are critical. Once the signal is screwed up there’s no getting it back. Additionally, if DACs were magic boxes capable of squeezing blood from a turnip more people would use toslink and interfaces wouldn’t matter. 

 

Thats said I enjoy reading all sides. I always learn something. 

[mansr]

28 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

My my belief is that sources are critical. Once the signal is screwed up there’s no getting it back.

A digital signal doesn't easily screw up.

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

You are missing the beauty of digital electronics. Digital can be reclocked, cleaned and reconstructed despite being transferred underneath the ocean or up into space and back down. 

 

That's the key. Digital data, while in transmission, can be molested, distorted, and otherwise damaged to a great degree, and still be properly recovered at the DAC, unlike analog signal. If the logical signal levels survive the transmission (bits, 1s and 0s), reclocking will fix the timing errors. And you really have to try very hard to screw up logical levels that are being transmitted over a 1m cable to make the receiver circuit confused.