Pink Faun 2.16

[Whitigir]

Wait, so Pinkfaun will have better clock than the OCXO now ? Will it be swapable ?

[lpost]

Yes, up to 30dB lower phase noise.  It will be swappable depending on your build.  If you have the OCXO now, the new ones, still OCXO but focused on very low phase distortion, should be able to be swapped in the field but of course confirm with Jord.  

 

They don't have a timeline yet when they'll be available...

[Whitigir]

3 hours ago, lpost said:

Yes, up to 30dB lower phase noise.  It will be swappable depending on your build.  If you have the OCXO now, the new ones, still OCXO but focused on very low phase distortion, should be able to be swapped in the field but of course confirm with Jord.  

 

They don't have a timeline yet when they'll be available...

 

Thanks very much, I will be waiting the , and hopefully new I2S bridge will be able to output DSD as well 

[lpost]

Have you asked Jord about an updated I2S bridge to output DSD?  I've not seen any references to it if there is one coming.  

[Whitigir]

17 minutes ago, lpost said:

Have you asked Jord about an updated I2S bridge to output DSD?  I've not seen any references to it if there is one coming.  

 

I did ask, but Native DSD is so far wishlist only 

[flkin]

My unit was shipped in a wooden crate with an external shock sensor. Now I know why.

[flkin]

Does the i2S board come with clock options?

[hieukm]

11 hours ago, lpost said:

Yes, up to 30dB lower phase noise.  It will be swappable depending on your build.  If you have the OCXO now, the new ones, still OCXO but focused on very low phase distortion, should be able to be swapped in the field but of course confirm with Jord.  

 

They don't have a timeline yet when they'll be available...

 

Wow -30db phase noise seems impressive. Could you colloborate more on its actualy measurement? -30db phase noise compare to say Mutec Ref10 clock?

 

 

[flkin]

Actually it's probably closer to 20db difference.

 

The existing clock is a Connor Winfield OH200 series clock which has a phase noise at 10Hz at around -110db/Hz according to their spec sheet.

 

I posted the Pink Faun prototype clock data sometime back with readings of -130db/Hz giving a difference of around 20db. 

 

Hot off the press, here is the official clock performance of the new Pink Faun clocks. -132.5db/Hz at 10Hz ??

 

This will make a big difference for sure!

Pink Faun OCXO phase noise.pdf

[m3lraaHnevetS]

On 6/27/2018 at 7:58 PM, flkin said:

 

As my 2.16 is breaking in, and it does seem to take quite some time for this to happen, the sound is becoming better playing in NOS mode. No upsampling at all, just Roon playing at original resolutions. 

 

It was fun experimenting with HQplayer and Roon upsampling and certain settings (polysinclp or polysincxtr mp/lp or Sinc) sound very nice but all that's changing as I approach full burn in. Now I find 44.1 as is it amazingly good - focused and full of detail, yet organic and real.

 

That said, I output as USB into a tX-USBultra reclocked by a Mutec Ref10. Managed to retire my IsoRegen and iPurifier in the chain but not the tX-USBultra. That still seems to add an extra sense of reality to the music.

Try 44.1 (or anything else) coming from Roon through HQP with PCM filter settings at none, none, none, 44.1, 192

this only works when the first file you play is indeed a 44.1 file, after that you can also play hires files natively using these settings.

To me this sounds better than any upsampling and also much better than just Roon.

[flkin]

Found the Mutec Ref10 phase noise figures for 10Hz. It's -142dBc/Hz so that yet another level lower. This is a special reference clock and is designed for external use unlike the Pink Faun clock installed on board closer to where they are needed. 

[lpost]

8 hours ago, flkin said:

Does the i2S board come with clock options?

Yes.  Same clock choices as the USB board.

[lpost]

1 hour ago, flkin said:

This will make a big difference for sure!

Pink Faun OCXO phase noise.pdf

 

20dB difference/lower when already in the sub -100dB range is not going to be an obvious change.  I would put it in the subtle, diminishing returns column.  But I will probably feel compelled to upgrade my I2S board. 

[flkin]

Ah, that's not the case in my experience. Every dB seems to make a difference where phase noise is concerned especially at the 1 Hz mark. 

 

I have a Cybershaft OP14 clock which has a phase noise of  -114dB at 1Hz. The Mutec Ref10 is -116dB at 1Hz  and is nearly double the price for good reason.

 

A change of 20dB at 10Hz is effectively a few orders of magnitude change. It's going to be a whole new streamer. ?

[lpost]

I was thinking about the board with two clocks mounted underneath.  It seems they could simply rotate it 180 degs and shorten the wires significantly.

[lpost]

5 minutes ago, flkin said:

A change of 20dB at 10Hz is effectively a few orders of magnitude change. It's going to be a whole new streamer. ?

 

Is it?  I think 20dB is only one order of magnitude or two.  0dB to -20dB would be two OOM.  Yes?  Figuring logarithmic changes were never my strong suit.

[flkin]

I wasn't talking literally which I believe is 10 times (only an order of magnitude) for a 20db change, I was trying to say figuratively that the effective perceived sound improvement would be massive. Logs and the such was another lifetime for me too. ?

 

I should clarify that earlier I mentioned the Mutec Ref10 has a -142 dBc/Hz at 10Hz but these new Pink Faun clocks will have -132.5 dBc/Hz but at 20Hz. It is apparently easier to obtain low phase noise at lower frequencies. 

 

What makes me so excited about these clocks is that they will be used without having to convert the frequency from 10MHz to the final required MHz required by the electronics while having the clock signal pass through multiple connections and cables to get there. 

 

Jord says the frequencies required in the 2.16 server is 20MHz  for the USB bridge, 24.576 for the I2S bridge / SPDIF bridge and 25MHz for the system and processor clocks. So the 20MHz clock chart I attached earlier would refer to the USB bridge but is probably indicative of the low noise their other clocks will eventually achieve.

[lpost]

This chart shows -132 at 10Hz for the 20MHz clock.  This reads as though its much easier to reduce phase noise as we go UP in freq.

 

 

 

 

[flkin]

Ok I see the confusion.

 

The Ref10 clock outputs a clock signal at 10Hz for other devices to use. This signal has a phase noise curve in dBc which changes depending on the Hz of measurement. The usual measurement for comparisons between clocks is at the 10Hz or 1Hz noise on the curve of the clock.

 

When I said Pink Faun's clock was based on a 20Hz clock that's the frequency of its output signal and not referring to the frequency of noise measurement on the chart.

 

It's easier to get a low phase noise with a  signal output frequency at 10hz so you can't directly compare the phase noise of a 10hz clock with a 20hz clock. 

[flkin]

4 hours ago, m3lraaHnevetS said:

Try 44.1 (or anything else) coming from Roon through HQP with PCM filter settings at none, none, none, 44.1, 192

this only works when the first file you play is indeed a 44.1 file, after that you can also play hires files natively using these settings.

To me this sounds better than any upsampling and also much better than just Roon.

 

I read about this sometime back but haven't been able to get it to work.

 

Using the setting you @m3lraaHnevetSrecommend above, 44.1 files play fine but DSD files simply hang.

 

Would I need to set the HQPlayer Output mode to PCM or Auto? Or is there another trick I missed?

 

Thanks!

[m3lraaHnevetS]

5 hours ago, flkin said:

 

I read about this sometime back but haven't been able to get it to work.

 

Using the setting you @m3lraaHnevetSrecommend above, 44.1 files play fine but DSD files simply hang.

 

Would I need to set the HQPlayer Output mode to PCM or Auto? Or is there another trick I missed?

 

Thanks!

You are right, DSD files do hang with these settings, i had not noticed this since i have very few DSD files. But still, to me PCM (not just 44.1 but also higher res) does sound amazing with these settings.

[jjkale]

@edorr:  may I ask do you use REW?

I am finding it is complicated to use REW w/JRiver (WDM driver) through the I2S bridge.  There are significant latency issues which I believe render some of the measurements useless.

I don't like Dirac because of the bass management problems and like to make my own adjustments.

Any other suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

 

 

[flkin]

16 hours ago, m3lraaHnevetS said:

You are right, DSD files do hang with these settings, i had not noticed this since i have very few DSD files. But still, to me PCM (not just 44.1 but also higher res) does sound amazing with these settings.

 

I have to do more comparisons for Roon 44.1 and HQPlayer 44.1 (in my system comparison isn't easy) but I agree with your findings that HQP 44.1 is better, but in my system only subtly. 

 

I've discovered that the hanging issue is solved if I set :

 

-Output mode: Auto

-Direct SDM ticked 

-Options: Auto rate family (not sure if this is important)

-PCM settings : none, none, none, 44.1, 192

 

then HQPlayer 44.1 plays as 44.1, hi res PCM plays at their original hi res settings and DSD files play as per HQP's SDM settings.

[m3lraaHnevetS]

19 hours ago, flkin said:

 

I have to do more comparisons for Roon 44.1 and HQPlayer 44.1 (in my system comparison isn't easy) but I agree with your findings that HQP 44.1 is better, but in my system only subtly. 

 

I've discovered that the hanging issue is solved if I set :

 

-Output mode: Auto

-Direct SDM ticked 

-Options: Auto rate family (not sure if this is important)

-PCM settings : none, none, none, 44.1, 192

 

then HQPlayer 44.1 plays as 44.1, hi res PCM plays at their original hi res settings and DSD files play as per HQP's SDM settings.

Thanks for testing this, it does indeed work. enjoy the music!

[DavidL]

Here's a left-field question for this topic:

 

I've been using the PS Audio Directstream DAC for a couple of years with music fed by ethernet to the PS Bridge II from a NAS (optically isolated). I've read about reservations as to the sound quality for this setup when compared to using the I2S input to this DAC. So is it likely I could get improved SQ by using (say) a Sonore ultraRendu to convert ethernet music to USB and input this to a Pink Faun box to get I2S output to feed to the DirectStream DAC?