New to CA.com - DSD not sounding better than Tidal

[XCII]

Hello! 

 

 

 

First, a list of my equipment: 

 

Desktop PC, from which I stream TIDAL HiFi

 

Marantz HD-DAC1, connected to pc via both USB and COAX via M2Tech HiFace 2

 

Hifiman HE-400 headphones 

 

JRiver 24 media player

 

I was not quite sure what to call my topic, but here's my description of my issue: 

 

I purchased an album (DSD 5.6Mhz) from NativeDSD.com in order to test the DSD-capabilities of my Marantz. I have set JRiver up accordingly with the following guide: 

 

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD (I am using DSD over PCM - it seems to be the only setting working) 

 

My issue is that I percieve TIDAL HiFi to be of a better sound quality than the DSD-files I have. This confuses me, as I had thought that DSD would sound a whole lot better than just about anything else.

 

Granted, I am new to the world of DSD, so perhaps there's something I've done wrong, or simply misunderstood. 

 

I look forward to your replies.

[Musicophile]

Welcome to the forum! 

 

The quality difference of file formats is IMHO not as big as many may believe believe. With Tidal, you’re starting with non compressed Flac, so a pretty decent starting point. Plus some DACs like DSD more than PCM, for others it’s the other way round. 

[XCII]

I see - that explains it, then. 

 

Can you say whether the percieved difference in quality between the different filetypes increases in general, when listening to higher-end equipment? Also, is there a way of "matching" the proper types of headphones, amps, DACS and so forth  to get a better sound quality overall, or is it completely individual?

 

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

I agree with @Musicophile

 

I would add that DSD files IME a play back softer than PCM and therefore whatever sounds louder is often preferred (as verified in psycho acoustic testing).

 

10 minutes ago, XCII said:

 

 

Can you say whether the percieved difference in quality between the different filetypes increases in general, when listening to higher-end equipment?

 

Truly high end gear should play all file types equally well but theory may not always match reality. It comes down to how well each has been implemented.

 

At the end of the day some folks prefer DSD to PCM and vice versa. For me, it comes down more to the quality of the recording and quality of the mastering, less so about the file type.

 

10 minutes ago, XCII said:

Also, is there a way of "matching" the proper types of headphones, amps, DACS and so forth  to get a better sound quality overall, or is it completely individual?

 

 

You will get  many opinions. For me, its about choosing neutral components as opposed to synergistic matching that strives to compensate for one audio component's character with a contrasting character of another. Technically of course things must match like adequate power to drive certain speakers etc

[One and a half]

Agree with @Audiophile Neuroscience the recording is the limitation when comparing DSD to PCM and also how conversions take place between either format.

 

To me , Native DSD recordings are pretty much up there from Blue Coast Records Cookie Morenko masterpieces a prime example. Then compare this to the tripe of mastering , mixing from know it all engineers, so called. Knob twiddlers.

[XCII]

Thank you for your replies. 

[mansr]

4 hours ago, XCII said:

Marantz HD-DAC1, connected to pc via both USB and COAX via M2Tech HiFace 2

You might want to try connecting the PC directly to the USB input on the DAC.

 

4 hours ago, XCII said:

I purchased an album (DSD 5.6Mhz) from NativeDSD.com in order to test the DSD-capabilities of my Marantz. I have set JRiver up accordingly with the following guide: 

 

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD (I am using DSD over PCM - it seems to be the only setting working) 

Yes, since you're using an S/PDIF connection, DSD over PCM is the only way. If you use direct USB connection to the DAC, it may be possible to skip this wrapping (I don't know what the Marantz supports), not that it should matter. The same DSD bits are delivered to the DAC chip either way.

 

4 hours ago, XCII said:

My issue is that I percieve TIDAL HiFi to be of a better sound quality than the DSD-files I have. This confuses me, as I had thought that DSD would sound a whole lot better than just about anything else.

 

Granted, I am new to the world of DSD, so perhaps there's something I've done wrong, or simply misunderstood.

The sound you hear depends primarily on the quality of the recording, not the delivery format, and excellent recordings are produced in both PCM and DSD. The quality of implementation in the DAC can also affect the outcome, some being better at PCM, others favouring DSD. I believe the virtues of DSD are somewhat overstated by many proponents of the format. That said, recording in pure DSD means no digital processing can be performed; there's no way to add a little reverb here or a bit of compression there. If you prefer resulting natural sound, you may find many DSD recordings pleasing, not because of the format per se, but because the process inherently limits the amount of meddling that can be done. On the other hand, if you like heavily processed music styles, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, you'll probably not find many so-called native DSD recordings to your taste.

 

The HD-DAC1 uses a Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC chip. Here's a block diagram from the data sheet:

 

Notice that for DSD, there are two paths, one passing through a digital filter and ΔΣ modulator, the other going directly to the D/A stage. For "pure" DSD playback, you'll want to make sure, if possible, that the latter is used. If the Marantz DAC has a "Direct DSD" or similarly labelled mode, this is it.

 

[XCII]

Quote

You might want to try connecting the PC directly to the USB input on the DAC.

 

I am currently using the USB directly from the PC to the Marantz, but the two are also connected via COAX via an adapter - so they are separate in- and outputs, and do not (or at least shouldn't) affect each other. 

 

Thank you for the elaborate answer ?

[rando]

10 hours ago, XCII said:

First, a list of my equipment: 

 

Desktop PC, from which I stream TIDAL HiFi

 

Marantz HD-DAC1, connected to pc via both USB and COAX via M2Tech HiFace 2

 

Hifiman HE-400 headphones 

 

JRiver 24 media player

 

 

As you would imagine on a site named Computer Audiophile.  We give a fair amount of attention to computers.  Could you give more details about your desktop pc.  We generally agree that everything  matters in the music chain and system matching can have a deeply beneficial effect.  I'm sure if there were any issues with the rest of your equipment they would have been expanded upon by now.  You might see if reading through this thread gives you ideas to try.

 

There are many reasons why you might not instantly fall in love with native resolution DSD files from Native DSD.  You didn't list the album your purchased but I would recommend downloading some of their free samples since you are registered already.  There are multiple options for each track so you can do a comparison between file types and, most relevantly, different music genres.  You may just discover what isn't there makes listening less wearying or that you prefer the sound of heavier work on the mastering desk.  Either way it is free with no judgement placed on what you prefer.

[XCII]

I apologize for not providing all of the details required for helping me out:

 

The PC I am using is one I've built myself. 

 

It's running a genuine version of Windows 10, and the hardware is as follows: 

 

I5 8600k CPU @ 4.3Ghz 

ASUS TUF Z370 Plus Gaming motherboard 

16GB DDR4 @3000 Mhz 

ASUS GTX1070ti ROG Strix 

 

 

The album I've purchased is Paper Motion by Paper Motion - I chose this specifically because it is not classical music, of which there seemed to be the most of, and I thought it'd be easier for me to hear whatever differences in the audio quality there might be, than listening to classical music, which I am not used to listening to. 

 

I hope I've provided, if not all,  then at least some of the information you were looking for.

[rando]

Thank you, one reason why I asked was to explore playback from a hard drive v streaming.  If this discrepancy could be proved to exist with a ripped CD or other lossless file it would make sense why DSD sounded less appealing.  In any case a dedicated music server is going to provide a much better experience than one used for multiple tasks.  As I stated, it really could be you prefer the more processed and punchy sound over the style of DSD employed in the recording you bought.  Especially rock and electronica take on a different character some highly enjoy when there is more distortion than found on most audiophile recordings.  

 

You could try using the shortest SATA cable possible on SSD or HDD to improve sound quality.  Some report better sound using one type of drive over another or a solution like an M800 Optane boot drive with music files stored either on PCIe M.2 or SATA of some flavor.  On the other end is using audiophile external power supplies to power critical components in the music chain.  If you haven't already considered it you could try turning off all  W10 processes not needed for playback or trial software that goes beyond this.  All or none of these might already be in use by you.  I don't know without asking.

[Norton]

As others have noted DSD isn’t necessarily always better than 16/44 PCM.

However, in general I’d be surprised if streaming from Tidal  Desktop sounded better  than DSD from local storage.

 

Connect PC to DAC directly via usb and make sure JR River is set to play to your DAC’s  ASIO  driver (you have downloaded  this?).  

 

If your DAC has an input readout check that is is actually receiving  a DSD stream.  Also note that DSD output is generally 6db down on PCM so if DSD sounds  a bit anaemic or distant you may need to turn up the volume to compare on a like for like basis, unless JRiver or your  DAC compensates automatically.  

[XCII]

Norton, thank you for replying. 

 

My Marantz It tells me it's recieving DSD 5.6Mhz, so that's what I'll assume. I'll check if there are any volume-compensating settings.