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How much does it cost to be an audiophile?


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1 hour ago, mav52 said:

People that brag about the price of their gear are nothing more than,  snobs.

 

Plus they probably don't have a decent system (to what standards btw, mine ?? )

 

What I personally like to brag about is that my today's system costs about half of what it ever back costed while it sounds about 10 times better (the 10 times I measured with a tape measure).

Obviously I think it is the best system out there and here, but that doesn't need emphasis. :D

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There is no minimum for a system for an audiophile, although the costs will be higher than expected. I mean, when I was young (like 10) I also wanted to be(come) an audiophile The joy in my system were the improvements after the initial stereo setup from two Philips radios, a self-made turn table and some leftover Peerless drivers from my father. The cost ? about nothing, but say 250 euros back at the time. The SQ ? I recall very good, but of course it was pure sh*t. But it was very good indeed because I listened to it with my reference, even when the real reference was right in the living room and my father's system (a really high end system for the time). Point is : you're an audiophile by the money you have. That is really all there is to it.

 

Why is it more than people think ?

Because it requires a computer these days and it is taken for granted somehow. But it really shouldn't be taken for granted because a. a computer costs money in the first place and b. a dedicated system for say 3500 euros sounds seriously better than "a PC".

So it starts with 3500 euros ? of course not. It starts with the laptop you have laying around. No wait, the phone (also not cheap these days).

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Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

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14 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Plus they probably don't have a decent system (to what standards btw, mine ?? )

 

What I personally like to brag about is that my today's system costs about half of what it ever back costed while it sounds about 10 times better (the 10 times I measured with a tape measure).

Obviously I think it is the best system out there and here, but that doesn't need emphasis. :D

Now that you've bragged you'll have to tell us a bit about it.

 

Are you using three-way horns and bass bins?

Active crossovers?

Amp topology?

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

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26 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Which amp would you recommend for less?

 

26 minutes ago, semente said:

Now that you've bragged you'll have to tell us a bit about it.

 

I don't know whether there's much to tell about it. Speaker is an active horn system (no bass bin) straight to 19Hz (DSP from mid to bass) and all build for speed (118dB sensitive). This includes the ultra short signal distance a "gainclone" chip can accomplish (because actually it's only that chip accomplishing the amplification) with a net result on THD you won't find elsewhere (btw 4 amps per ch). I think there is a thread running about this, but it focuses on ClassD while this is just ClassB (and most certainly not A which is what I'd explicitly do not want).

 

We can't say "take this or that amp" because it is about the whole system and how -for example- any  118dB sensitive speaker will blow the ceiling off of the building with 1W only. A LOT can be done with that fact (as a base). Or, how the low distortion of an amp is quite useless when the speaker can't follow anyway. Or, how the (ultra) low distortion of a D/A converter become audible when higher because the remainder is so "low" on the distortion.

It's an infinite quest. But expensive ? really expensive ? No. It is merely knowledge, I'd say. That usually means a lot of experience. And that means being somewhat older. Haha.

 

 

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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3 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

 

I don't know whether there's much to tell about it. Speaker is an active horn system (no bass bin) straight to 19Hz (DSP from mid to bass) and all build for speed (118dB sensitive). This includes the ultra short signal distance a "gainclone" chip can accomplish (because actually it's only that chip accomplishing the amplification) with a net result on THD you won't fine elsewhere. I think there is a thread running about this, but it focuses on ClassD while this is just ClassB (and most certainly not A which is what I'd explicitly do not want).

 

We can't say "take this or that amp" because it is about the whole system and how -for example- any  118dB sensitive speaker will blow the ceiling off of the building with 1W only. A LOT can be done with that fact (as a base). Or, how the low distortion of an amp is quite useless when the speaker can't follow anyway. Or, how the (ultra) low distortion of a D/A converter become audible when higher because the remainder is so "low" on the distortion.

It's an infinite quest. But expensive ? really expensive ? No. It is merely knowledge, I'd say. That usually means a lot of experience. And that means being somewhat older. Haha.

 

 

 

Horns are an expensive path since each way can't or should not cover more than 3 octaves and they're best run active.

How many ways in yours?

Most people use SET amplification, it's interesting that you chose a chip-amp.

 

I once dipped my toes in horns, bought a pair of Chinese horn+bassbin speakers and made some experiments and improvements, but my low budget kept me from getting the most out of the topology. They had passive crossovers and at one point drove them with a single LM1875T amplifier.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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10 hours ago, GUTB said:

Having flown first class many times I can tell you that it’s a ripoff — you get very little for a lot of money.

 

1. Priority security lane. I also get this as a points member with a credit card.

2. First to board. Who cares. I get middle priority with credit card membership anyway.

3. Pre take-off drink. Who cares.

4. Larger seat. The main reason for first class. Buying two coach seats often costs less and gets you even more room.

5. De-plane quickly. Okay that’s a big plus for a frequent flier, but still not worth the cost.

 

First class international wide body accommodations are very nice and it’s the best way to fly overseas, but the price is completely absurd, you can often get 2 coach seats for less than half the price.

If coach was 1/2 first on international I would always fly first.  International is about $7,000 a ticket to Europe.  That is flying in a pod.,   Coach is more like $1,400.  

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I think you can have a system that cost about $1,700 in basic components and get very good playback.  Per the definition of "audiophile" being reproduction of live, no you can't do that.  Yea sure, a 2000 watt Crown amp and EV Pro Audio speakers will blow your ears off irritate your neighbors.  But to get accurate reproduction you can relax and enjoy is more the quest we strive for here.  In order to do that you need to know how to tune the system.  To get good results from any $ investment will take time and some money.  The store the author listened to the $1,700 system in probably had some acoustic treatment.  It also probably had dedicated power, or at least the store was better wired than a home.  At least 12AWG in pipe and wire.  Components play best with vibration control, racks, pods etc.  Cables  matter.  It all has to be taken into the equation.  The author of the article did not ask the store what the cost of the power, speaker, interconnect  and stand all cost.

 

My point is tuning matters.  It has to be added into any equation that speaks to Audiophilia.  Add to that statement,  "you have to be taught how to tune".  It's not just something anyone can do.  There is a process, artifacts in the playback to listen for.   It's is not for everyone.  I believe and audiophile is not necessarily looking for live performance playback.  It is a person engaged in a process of extracting the highest quality playback from the base components in the system using accessories.  Accessories are anything from dedicated power systems, cables, stands, isolators, room treatments, placement, subwoofers etc.  

 

I would say it cost $4,000 and a minimum 700 hours or a couple years of leaning, reading, getting into what makes good playback to have a high performing system.  As you cut the hours of learning, the $ increase. 

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4 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Plus they probably don't have a decent system (to what standards btw, mine ?? )

 

What I personally like to brag about is that my today's system costs about half of what it ever back costed while it sounds about 10 times better (the 10 times I measured with a tape measure).

Obviously I think it is the best system out there and here, but that doesn't need emphasis. :D

 

So very True. 

The Truth Is Out There

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Well, I guess I started it off wondering about the old guard's thoughts. Back in the early 90s when I was a young lad starting out, I would frequent the local audio shops. One in particular in Providence was always stocked with big Martin Logans, VPI tables, super massive Krell and ARC amps, etc. Anyway, the owner was a real audio snob and highly opinionated. He had no problem telling you your kit sucked if it wasn't of a certain brand or size. High end audio seems to be so much different know, I think the definition of a proper "audiophile" has had to change. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

Well, I guess I started it off wondering about the old guard's thoughts. Back in the early 90s when I was a young lad starting out, I would frequent the local audio shops. One in particular in Providence was always stocked with big Martin Logans, VPI tables, super massive Krell and ARC amps, etc. Anyway, the owner was a real audio snob and highly opinionated. He had no problem telling you your kit sucked if it wasn't of a certain brand or size. High end audio seems to be so much different know, I think the definition of a proper "audiophile" has had to change. 

Don't kid yourself. Far to many audio shop owners or salesmen all have the your gear suck,  such a waste of money, now buy my stuff outright speak.  

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Dealers suck. They will try and gauge what you want to spend and then push something in that dollar range. If I were a dealer I would push whatever I thought would sound best and work with the customer to find the best price/performance compromise.

 

...not that I’d want to be dealer. Most everyone is just going to buy used or on clearance somplace so I’d be working for nothing most of the time.

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5 hours ago, mansr said:

quote-audiophiles-don-t-use-their-equipm

I agree.  I look at the term "Audiophile" with a bit of ...well not sure of the term..."disdain" is too harsh.  What happened to the music?  In college I listened to clock radios and was happy.  

 

Do not get me wrong, Love this website and I am intrigued by of some of the equipment/systems the members have.  But I do not have the will or inclination (i do have the wallet) to upgrade.  I can hear the music fine.

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I do not believe there is a problem being an audiophile per se. I think we can all agree we love music and enjoy hearing it played back in higher quality. The problems with audiophiles......Well that is widely known and commonly on display.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, KingRex said:

My point is tuning matters.  It has to be added into any equation that speaks to Audiophilia.  Add to that statement,  "you have to be taught how to tune".  It's not just something anyone can do.  There is a process, artifacts in the playback to listen for.   It's is not for everyone.  I believe and audiophile is not necessarily looking for live performance playback.  It is a person engaged in a process of extracting the highest quality playback from the base components in the system using accessories.  Accessories are anything from dedicated power systems, cables, stands, isolators, room treatments, placement, subwoofers etc.  

 

I would say it cost $4,000 and a minimum 700 hours or a couple years of leaning, reading, getting into what makes good playback to have a high performing system.  As you cut the hours of learning, the $ increase. 

 

That's the approach. Luckily, extracting the highest quality playback can also deliver the subjective hit of live performance playback - I haven't found any limits yet; if I put more in, I get even more good stuff coming out.

 

In earlier decades, adding adding more and more $s didn't compensate for not spending time; these days it's different; extremely smart purchasing can deliver nearly everything, with far less to do to get optimum replay.

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I rather dislike the tone of the article in the first post to the thread.  It is common.  And gee you go to a high dollar dealer and he tells you it takes high dollars to get okay enough sound.  Big surprise there. 

 

I've said it before, buy a pair of JBL 305s at $300 a pair. This gets you far along the curve of truly good sound.  It isn't SOTA and it isn't everything, but it is very good.  Add one of the better $200 or so DAC/Pre's with a computer source and you are there.  

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Great article--I agree that $2,000 is plenty to get good sound (I'd toss in a Dragonfly or Schiit Modi, and a small REL subwoofer, to his $1,100 combo).

 

Of course, I'd also agree that dropping 10-20X that price can be reasonable ?

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22 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

I found this article today and had a good time reading it. Just thought I'd share it. Thoughts? Sadly, i can relate.

https://priceonomics.com/speakers/

I have to disagree with the conclusion of that article. I have friends who have fine sounding systems, systems that are accurate (as far as they go), musical, and damn fine to listen too, and which, through various different ploys, don't cost a lot. Take my friend Dave, for instance. His system, though modest, is quite excellent sounding. Here's what it consists of: A Mac Mini with all his music ripped to it - @$600. A Schiit Modi Multi-bit DAC - $250, a Yaqin MC100-B dual mono "integrated" tube amp (100WPC) - $800, a pair of Magnapan MG-Point Seven speakers - $1500. Total? $3100. Now tell me that's the fortune the article talks about? Another acquaintance of mine, named Jim has a system made completely of used equipment. He has an Van Alstine Solid-State preamp, my old Denon POA6600A (Threshold circuit) mono blocks, and a pair of Infinity Kappa 7.1s, His front end is a JVC Direct Drive turntable (QL-10 the one with the round plinth and the LED speed indicator), a classic SME 3009 Arm and an Audio Technica AT-160 cartridge. For a CD player he has a Denon DVD-758 which will play just about everything short of Blu-Ray, including SACD and sounds damn good doing it. All used, and less than $3K! Right now he's refurbishing an old Thorens TD124 which will replace the JVC QL-10, but He'll keep the SME arm (don't blame him). If you want good sound and are willing to hunt down the components you want on Craigslist, E-Bay, the Hi-Fi shops and the newspaper want ads, You can put together a fine sounding system for very little money.  

George

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On 5/27/2018 at 12:37 PM, Nordkapp said:

What would be considered in today's monies to gain entry into audiophiledom?

 

The trouble with this question is that the answers will be filtered through the biases of the respondents and that includes me if I were to nominate a $ figure. We all have different views and much depends for a start on how you define an audiophile system (sarcastic jibes made by some, aside). Are we talking enjoyable sound, perfectly good sound, high end sound and what do they mean by those things anyway? Who decides? I can enjoy music on the car radio but I don't consider it to be great sound. The honest answer is that it is self-referencing as to what one considers audiophile quality sound and how much it should/does cost. Perhaps the more objective answer to the question is to refer to the CA Poll that specified how much the members actually DID pay for their system. If the numbers were available it would be interesting to see the range representing the lowest 1/10th  percentile. Maybe that could be held as entry level to audiophildom. I have no idea whether these stats are available.

 

10 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

 High end audio seems to be so much different know, I think the definition of a proper "audiophile" has had to change. 

 

It's become a term of derision. Not by me I hasten to add.

 

 

 

Sound Minds Mind Sound

 

 

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