Network Isolation

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

As someone very new to using FMC's powered by your LPS-1's (I've found this combination to make an incredible improvement) I just wanted to ask, is this more to do with less noise (the littler ethernet transformers don't isolate everything) than signal integrity, or a combination of both?

 

I honestly don't know Sean.  John has some newish theories about this (which may feed into some new products eventually), but he does not want to talk about them until his new lab is set up so he can test/measure/prove on the bench.

[asdf1000]

5 minutes ago, Superdad said:

I honestly don't know Sean.  John has some newish theories about this (which may feed into some new products eventually), but he does not want to talk about them until his new lab is set up so he can test/measure/prove on the bench.

 

Thanks Alex. Yes I did read a long while ago that John mentioned this is all super complex stuff.

 

I guess the dumbo in me says less noise in a signal (by way of the FMC's discussed above) means a cleaner signal (and therefore better SI?) but it's no doubt a lot more complex than that.

 

I bet you can't wait for John to get settled in his new lab to start working on all sorts of cool ideas :-)

 

[MrUnderhill]

I was following this thread, along with a number on the same theme on other sites. On some of my music I was hearing edge & spitting sibilance.

 

I put in some of the changes: FMC bridge; EMO-70; line isolators ...etc. These made a difference, and perhaps an improvement, but to transparency rather than the issue  I was hearing.

 

Last week, after MONTHS of trials, I solved the issue: grounding/earthing.

 

Its effect was subtle, sharpened high frequencies and a raised noise floor, so that the bass was there, but bass lines were a bit muddy & difficult to follow at times. This is difficult to describe, but you know it when it is gone.

 

I believe this issue was introduced when I introduced DC powered widgets into my system; and perhaps this explains some of the difference I hear when replacing SMPS with LPSUs.

 

Ultimately the solution for me was two wires and four connectors. Running my earthing back through my pre-amp.

 

None of this means that network isolation doesn't mak a difference, just that for me it was the wrong answer as I hadn't identified the right questions.

 

I have taken out my line isolators to get my earthing working correctly. I will be taking out the FMCs etc to hear whether they are still making a difference.

 

Posting this just in case others here are, like me, perhaps addressing the wrong problem.

 

M

[mourip]

4 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

I was following this thread, along with a number on the same theme on other sites. On some of my music I was hearing edge & spitting sibilance.

 

I put in some of the changes: FMC bridge; EMO-70; line isolators ...etc. These made a difference, and perhaps an improvement, but to transparency rather than the issue  I was hearing.

 

Last week, after MONTHS of trials, I solved the issue: grounding/earthing.

 

Its effect was subtle, sharpened high frequencies and a raised noise floor, so that the bass was there, but bass lines were a bit muddy & difficult to follow at times. This is difficult to describe, but you know it when it is gone.

 

I believe this issue was introduced when I introduced DC powered widgets into my system; and perhaps this explains some of the difference I hear when replacing SMPS with LPSUs.

 

Ultimately the solution for me was two wires and four connectors. Running my earthing back through my pre-amp.

 

None of this means that network isolation doesn't mak a difference, just that for me it was the wrong answer as I hadn't identified the right questions.

 

I have taken out my line isolators to get my earthing working correctly. I will be taking out the FMCs etc to hear whether they are still making a difference.

 

Posting this just in case others here are, like me, perhaps addressing the wrong problem.

 

M

 

Most of the major improvements in my system over the past 6 months have come from isolation and grounding/earthing. I credit CA for helping me with this and in particular John Swenson.

 

I compare it to watching the stars at night. Those billions of stars are there even in my light polluted city night sky just as they are in the Arizona desert. One just needs to uncover them. In our case once you have a decent front end then the work becomes getting rid of all of that background line and ground pollution that obscures the details.

[tboooe]

45 minutes ago, mourip said:

Most of the major improvements in my system over the past 6 months have come from isolation and grounding/earthing. I credit CA for helping me with this and in particular John Swenson.

I need to better understand the grounding concept.  Is there somewhere I can read up about this topic as it relates specifically to audio components (DC and AC powered)?

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, mourip said:

 

Most of the major improvements in my system over the past 6 months have come from isolation and grounding/earthing. I credit CA for helping me with this and in particular John Swenson.

 

I compare it to watching the stars at night. Those billions of stars are there even in my light polluted city night sky just as they are in the Arizona desert. One just needs to uncover them. In our case once you have a decent front end then the work becomes getting rid of all of that background line and ground pollution that obscures the details.

Nicely said!

[Albrecht]

On 7/9/2017 at 9:36 AM, Superdad said:

Yet the mechanisms--and points to directly measure--are not fully identified just yet.  Of course that is no reason to stop experimenting and using your ears to judge the comparisons.  That's not only how great systems are assembled, it is also part of how great audio products are developed.  Ask most any audio engineer whose been at it for a decade or few. 

Brilliantly stated Alex !

 

Cheers,

 

[mattjtaylor2809]

Hi All,

 

I'm sure you're all concerned as to whether I sorted out my MC110cs's FMC's well the answer is YES!!

I don't know why they just didn't work, I nearly had them working by changing over the switches but changing over to another brand OS2 patch worked a treat.

 

I'm not convinced in my system it's actually making a diff in SQ but I'm using pretty crappy Cat5 cables & I've not invested in a LPS to run the MC's but at least I got the damn things to work.

 

Any suggestions for a value for money Ethernet Cable & LPS?

 

Cheers

Matt

 

[mourip]

2 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said:

Hi All,

 

I'm sure you're all concerned as to whether I sorted out my MC110cs's FMC's well the answer is YES!!

I don't know why they just didn't work, I nearly had them working by changing over the switches but changing over to another brand OS2 patch worked a treat.

 

 

By "OS2 patch" do you mean the fiber optic cable?

[d_elm]

5 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said:

Hi All,

 

I'm sure you're all concerned as to whether I sorted out my MC110cs's FMC's well the answer is YES!!

I don't know why they just didn't work, I nearly had them working by changing over the switches but changing over to another brand OS2 patch worked a treat.

 

I'm not convinced in my system it's actually making a diff in SQ but I'm using pretty crappy Cat5 cables & I've not invested in a LPS to run the MC's but at least I got the damn things to work.

 

Any suggestions for a value for money Ethernet Cable & LPS?

 

Cheers

Matt

 

I have about 70 feet of CAT5 into the upstream FMC and a 14 inch CAT7, metal jacket connector at FMC and plactic connector at microRendu, shield connected at FMC only.

 

 Power is important for the downstream FMC, I use an LPS-1 after experimenting with lower price power (including battery).

 

Another possible issue is the noise put back on the AC line by SMPSs.  I have all, three, SMPSs isolated on one power strip and the strip is pluged into an Array Solutions AC-7, powerline filter. 

[marksas3]

5 hours ago, d_elm said:

I have about 70 feet of CAT5 into the upstream FMC and a 14 inch CAT7, metal jacket connector at FMC and plactic connector at microRendu, shield connected at FMC only.

 

 Power is important for the downstream FMC, I use an LPS-1 after experimenting with lower price power (including battery).

 

Another possible issue is the noise put back on the AC line by SMPSs.  I have all, three, SMPSs isolated on one power strip and the strip is pluged into an Array Solutions AC-7, powerline filter. 

 

Is it recommended to use the same LPS-1 for the microrendu and the downstream FMC?  Currently I have a pair of Jameco LPSU wall warts but wondering if I'll see an improvement using my LPS-1 for the FMC.  I don't want to buy a 2nd LPS-1, so i'm guessing I'd have to use a Y-splitter of some sort?

 

Thanks

[d_elm]

1 hour ago, marksas3 said:

 

Is it recommended to use the same LPS-1 for the microrendu and the downstream FMC?  Currently I have a pair of Jameco LPSU wall warts but wondering if I'll see an improvement using my LPS-1 for the FMC.  I don't want to buy a 2nd LPS-1, so i'm guessing I'd have to use a Y-splitter of some sort?

 

Thanks

If your DAC is using 5V from the USB cable then the three devices may give the LPS-1 trouble.  I had clicking.  You can try and go with two LPS-1 if a problem.

One LPS-1 on a Y-cable is not ideal as then the FMC and microRendu will share noise.  The FMCs I have seen have switching regulators.  I use 5V for the FMC and 7V for the microRendu.

[mattjtaylor2809]

12 hours ago, mourip said:

 

By "OS2 patch" do you mean the fiber optic cable?

 

Yes, Fibre optic patch cable.

The previous patch was OS1/2 & I think the MC's just didn't like them.

Cheers

Matt

[mattjtaylor2809]

9 hours ago, d_elm said:

I have about 70 feet of CAT5 into the upstream FMC and a 14 inch CAT7, metal jacket connector at FMC and plactic connector at microRendu, shield connected at FMC only.

 

 Power is important for the downstream FMC, I use an LPS-1 after experimenting with lower price power (including battery).

 

Another possible issue is the noise put back on the AC line by SMPSs.  I have all, three, SMPSs isolated on one power strip and the strip is pluged into an Array Solutions AC-7, powerline filter. 

 

I have read somewhere that Cat7 is the way to go but can you please explain the importance of a metal jacket connector at the downstream FMC but a plastic connector @ MicroRendu (which for me will be my PS Audio DSJnr)?

 

Cheers

Matt

[mattjtaylor2809]

2 hours ago, d_elm said:

If your DAC is using 5V from the USB cable then the three devices may give the LPS-1 trouble.  I had clicking.  You can try and go with two LPS-1 if a problem.

One LPS-1 on a Y-cable is not ideal as then the FMC and microRendu will share noise.  The FMCs I have seen have switching regulators.  I use 5V for the FMC and 7V for the microRendu.

 

I assume you can use x LPS-1 with a Y connector for both FMC's & that will be ok? My DAC is plugged into 240 volts (via Isotek).

 

Cheers

Matt

[d_elm]

24 minutes ago, mattjtaylor2809 said:

 

I have read somewhere that Cat7 is the way to go but can you please explain the importance of a metal jacket connector at the downstream FMC but a plastic connector @ MicroRendu (which for me will be my PS Audio DSJnr)?

 

Cheers

Matt

The metal jacket is required to connect the cable shield.  Where the shield is not connected I chose to use a plastic only connector.

[d_elm]

25 minutes ago, mattjtaylor2809 said:

 

I assume you can use x LPS-1 with a Y connector for both FMC's & that will be ok? My DAC is plugged into 240 volts (via Isotek).

 

Cheers

Matt

The upstream FMC is powered by the stock power supply as any noise generated by that FMC is dropped over the fibre.  Do you know if the DAC uses 5V from the USB cable ?  Specs do not always indicate.

[mattjtaylor2809]

3 hours ago, d_elm said:

The upstream FMC is powered by the stock power supply as any noise generated by that FMC is dropped over the fibre.  Do you know if the DAC uses 5V from the USB cable ?  Specs do not always indicate.

 

My connection into the DAC is via Ethernet, direct from the FMC so I'm keen to know the best value for money ethernet cable from the downstream FMC.

Cheers

Matt

[d_elm]

28 minutes ago, mattjtaylor2809 said:

 

My connection into the DAC is via Ethernet, direct from the FMC so I'm keen to know the best value for money ethernet cable from the downstream FMC.

Cheers

Matt

I use Audioquest Pearl CAT7, not expensive.

[barrows]

Hmm...  On SI with fiber connections.  I would suspect that for short distances, a good quality copper Ethernet cable will deliver better SI than the Copper-Fiber-Copper approach being described here.  Anytime one converts an electrical signal to an optical one there is a SI loss occurring.  Now for really long runs, of course optical rules, as the losses of the copper cable start to add up, but in the shorter runs I do not see how it would be possible to get better SI with the addition of two conversion steps in the chain.

It occurs to me that any sonic advantage heard with a copper-optical-copper set up which does not need to be a long run must be due to noise reasons alone, and not SI.

[Listener7]

On 7/23/2017 at 1:19 PM, barrows said:

Hmm...  On SI with fiber connections.  I would suspect that for short distances, a good quality copper Ethernet cable will deliver better SI than the Copper-Fiber-Copper approach being described here.  Anytime one converts an electrical signal to an optical one there is a SI loss occurring.  Now for really long runs, of course optical rules, as the losses of the copper cable start to add up, but in the shorter runs I do not see how it would be possible to get better SI with the addition of two conversion steps in the chain.

It occurs to me that any sonic advantage heard with a copper-optical-copper set up which does not need to be a long run must be due to noise reasons alone, and not SI.

This is a really great observation! There is always a trade off with signal conversions, and it makes sense that  fiber would not be the correct choice for a home setup under normal circumstances. I've had good results with network isolation and linear power supplies on my all copper network.

[mourip]

On 7/23/2017 at 2:19 PM, barrows said:

Hmm...  On SI with fiber connections.  I would suspect that for short distances, a good quality copper Ethernet cable will deliver better SI than the Copper-Fiber-Copper approach being described here.  Anytime one converts an electrical signal to an optical one there is a SI loss occurring.  Now for really long runs, of course optical rules, as the losses of the copper cable start to add up, but in the shorter runs I do not see how it would be possible to get better SI with the addition of two conversion steps in the chain.

It occurs to me that any sonic advantage heard with a copper-optical-copper set up which does not need to be a long run must be due to noise reasons alone, and not SI.

 

Sorry to be dim but what does SI stand for? Signal integrity?

[barrows]

1 hour ago, mourip said:

 

Sorry to be dim but what does SI stand for? Signal integrity?

Yes.  Sorry for any confusion.

[jabbr]

On 7/23/2017 at 2:19 PM, barrows said:

Hmm...  On SI with fiber connections.  I would suspect that for short distances, a good quality copper Ethernet cable will deliver better SI than the Copper-Fiber-Copper approach being described here.  Anytime one converts an electrical signal to an optical one there is a SI loss occurring.  

 

Prima facie, every fiberoptic ethernet switch converts optical signals to electrical and then optical and I've really never heard a concern regarding SI loss when this is done. Fiber is very very cheap these days. I don't use FMCs anymore though having converted all important network connections to fiber.

[dubselect]

Hello, guys.

 

I would like to try FMC as well. Will a couple of D-Link DMC-F02SC/A1A be OK for my needs?

I want to palce them between the Wi-Fi router (Cisco E4200) and the streamer (Linn DS). So is D-Link DMC-F02SC/A1A a right choice for me?

According to the description, DMC-F02SC/A1A is a Multi-mode FMC. Is it important?

Which cable type should I use to connect two DMC-F02SC/A1A?

 

Thanks in advance.