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What is the best flooring?


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Thanks for your response, elcorso.

 

- "....Large rooms like yours has the less problems...."

 

Luckily, there was no need to deal with a low frequency dead spot or standing wave. The room "fits" part of these wave lengths.

 

- "Regarding you like added resonances from your floor.... I'm sorry but I can't agree with you, because your speakers must reproduce the music as it was recorded, included the concert hall ambience noise and acoustics, if there was echoes and ambience noise in the recording, should be echoes and ambience noise in your reproduced music. But I you like it that way, then your a happy man, and this is the most important thing in life."

 

- "Regarding "Concerts, which I heard at some Churches, sounded marvelous because of echoes, not because of sound absorbing." Yes, but this are natural echoes from the Church. In your listening room echos from the walls and floor, are added, then artificial ones."

 

- "I replay to you because you can confuse some of the readers since your biassed statements and personal taste, and NOT to establish a personal discussion...."

 

These are good points. I'll try to clarify myself:

 

What we hear is both the echoes in the master (recorded and/or added in the mix), and the echoes/reverberations created in the listening room.

 

It is a very small minority, who would tweak a room to perfection (whatever that is...).

Quite a few out of the purchasers of the most expensive speakers, would have an architect or interior designer determine how the room will be like, not to mention requests such as "Get me the best speaker. It should be red ", or "I want the best speakers, but please make them disappear, I don't want to see them", or similarly "musical" requests, which aren't that rare.

 

The majority of people wouldn't accept carpets hanging from the ceiling, or placing large absorbing or reflecting screens in the room.

 

This is where good speaker makers aim at. They invest a lot of effort in giving the best sound they can, in NON-tweaked rooms. The speakers are made to sound at their best in a regular, reasonably ("average"?) reverberating rooms.

 

Such a speaker cannot sound at its best in a zero-reverberation room, such as mixing rooms.

For that, there're monitors, which were developed with a very different concept in mind. As they don't "count" on room echoes, to begin with, they are typically 'near-field' - intended for a much smaller 'stereo triangle'. They are made to be placed nearer each other and the listener. Waves are spread at a reduced angle.

(Some monitors can sound pretty good in regular rooms, but that's a clip from another movie.)

 

Back to speakers –

If we pad the room too much, and eliminate reverberation, we deprive the speaker of the type of acoustics it was designed to work in. SQ would drop.

 

Just to show how meticulous a speaker maker can get about room echoes/reverberation:

 

Wilson's policy is that the customer doesn't install their speakers. A trained installer "comes with the speakers" and does it. [He wouldn't even let me help pealing off the protective nylon… :-)]

He told me that there's a small electronic part, which has to be plugged in, if the speakers are located near the wall, which was the case.

I asked to hear the difference, and it was quite noticeable. Without it, the sound was a bit dull and "smeared". With it, it was more vivid and natural.

That part dealt with room reverberation.

 

As for the dog-carpet issue...

 

If the dog contributes his "initiative" at a regular place, how about putting a small, easy to clean synthetic carpet at that place, on top of the wall to wall, maybe with a sheet of nylon under it.

If it's a behavioral rather than medical issue, then one of the books by Cesar Millan (nicknamed 'The Dog whisperer') may help you in changing the dog's habit.

 

- " Happy listening!"

 

Agreed! :-)

 

 

 

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The dog is an elderly golden retriever. Very well-trained. He actually had a recent accident on a different carpet (same material but on the stairs), when he was trying go up the stairs to get us in the middle of the night. He is too old now to climb the stairs easily. So it is definitely "medical" rather than behavioral. The living room carpet is actually ok at the moment, but I would do everything at once.

 

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I have lived with music in three or four different rooms, until building my own office which is specifically for music reproduction. While I would be very happy to live with it as a main room, I concede that a great many would not.

Fisrtly, the underfloor is important. If it's wood, than get rid of as much springiness in it as you possibly can.

Then decide between you what you are happy to live with - the last thing you need is marital unrest because 'you' chose the floor for the wrong reason - the hifi - not what you both want to live with.

As has been said - their is no absolute here, you have to work with what you have.

If you go solid wood, then a large rug will help tame some reflections and dampen some mid range resonance.

If you go carpet, then you can look elsewhere at what can be achieved acoustically.

I love high ceilings - my office has 13' (4.3m). At this sort of height most speakers really do sing as they simply dont 'see' the ceiling and work better. Most ceilings are approx 8' and a lot of speakers deffinitely 'see' them.

Large rooms are much easier to work with acoustically than small, so thats in your favour, as has already been stated.

I also think that 'killing a room stone dead' is absolutely wrong - you need a nice balance with as flat a responce as can be achieved, life in the music is vital, and very easy to achieve. Anyone who has ever been in an anechoic chamber and trid to listen will know exactly what I mean, it is totally un-nerving.

This is a huge thing to get right, but getting the basics right first and living in harmony is vital - it is a shared space after all. Seeing what is acceptable after you have decided on the floor you want is the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

Out of interest I have a very stong underfloor made from wooden 'I' beams, topped and fixed with 18mm ply, then some coconut fibre interlay, on top of that and not touching any wall I have 22mm tongue and groove hi density chipboard. covering that is 8mm thick heavy duty carpet tiles. It so happens that it is by far the best floor I have ever had, better than solid concrete and a (very springy) tongue and groove 'normal' wooden floor.

There are ways of making acoustic panels (that work correctly) fairly / very attractive - no need for them to be totally fugly.

And by the way - that is a beautiful room you have there - it must be great to listen in it.

Have you ever had issues with the speakers and fireplace? ie - have you tried listening with them well into the room - ie the back of the speaker in front of the front of the fireplace. I understand this may not be easy to achieve harmoniously.

 

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This is actually a photograph I took that prompted someone (Christopher) to suggest moving the speakers out from the wall some more. In other words, the photo shows where I used to have them. They are now 20" from the wall. This made a huge difference. I was actually quite shocked. My wife immediately noticed and we had a pretty good fight over it, but I won. I think she has all but forgotten now. Or at least is quietly nursing a grudge. (She is also very strangely uninterested in discussing the various merits of different types of audio cables.)

 

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  • 2 years later...

This again. We still have the carpet, but the dog is gone, and the puppy how is old enough to be trusted, so it is time either to replace the carpet with another carpet or with wood. Here is a more recent photo; the original ones no longer appear in this thread:

 

in_situ.jpg

 

We would keep the Persian rug and replace the white wool carpet with another of similar quality or else hardwood flooring. The sub-floor is wood sitting on pillar and post.

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This again. We still have the carpet, but the dog is gone, and the puppy how is old enough to be trusted, so it is time either to replace the carpet with another carpet or with wood. Here is a more recent photo; the original ones no longer appear in this thread:

 

in_situ.jpg

 

 

We would keep the Persian rug and replace the white wool carpet with another of similar quality or else hardwood flooring. The sub-floor is wood sitting on pillar and post.

 

If you can replace the white carpet with solid wood (like Maple, 3/4" to 1" thickness) would be nice acoustically (not veneer floor), but maybe yo need to move the Persian rug closer to the speakers (to their front borders), and if possible, a wider one, covering the speakers edges, or a little more.

 

Regarding dog pee, now my dog remains only in the kitchen (with access to the garden). She ruined two Persian rugs: Music room and dining room...!

 

Roch

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  • 7 months later...

The time has come. Moving the rug back or (preferably) the speakers forward a bit sounds like the ideal solution. Despite the underfloor being suspended wood, it is really very solid -- no springiness.

 

Looking at the picture makes me realize just how terribly the white carpet has deteriorated. To replace this with a similar (wool) rug of comparable quality would cost at least as much as an oak floor. I think I am going to go for the wood. Bob Stern tells me the room sounds rather dead to him at the moment.

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The time has come. Moving the rug back or (preferably) the speakers forward a bit sounds like the ideal solution. Despite the underfloor being suspended wood, it is really very solid -- no springiness.

 

Looking at the picture makes me realize just how terribly the white carpet has deteriorated. To replace this with a similar (wool) rug of comparable quality would cost at least as much as an oak floor. I think I am going to go for the wood. Bob Stern tells me the room sounds rather dead to him at the moment.

 

Sonically Hard Maple is better than Oak. Always leaving the Persian carpet as is.

 

The full floor (white) carpet cause the rather dead sound noticed by Bob. You need more reflections, and wood reflections are nice to the music / ear.

 

Roch

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  • 2 months later...

I don't know how far you want to go with this but there is one thing you could do that is a bit more involved if you are planning long term on having your speakers in the corner area next to the fireplace. Since you would be taking the old carpet out and getting down to the subfloor, you could actually replace the floor and subfloor/supports in an area extending out from the fireplace with this speaker section of floor isolated from the rest of the room floor and possibly isolated from the corner walls and fireplace behind it. For aesthetics you could have stone or tile matching well with the fireplace stone in this area on a solid foundation that is anchored on pilings that could be added. This will decouple your speakers from the floor and nearby walls (except of course for the airborne sound energy coming from the speaker cones). There are mastering studios that anchor and isolate the speakers from the rest of the structure with reported positive results such as cleaner better defined bass etc.

 

As for the rest of the flooring, I agree with other comments that a solid wood floor such as bamboo or maple in the rest of the room with thick wool rugs placed appropriately to absorb reflections and energy works well. You want the floor to be as rigid as possible to minimize resonance putting unwanted energy back into the room. Studios often also employ an opposites approach on sound treatment so the room is not too dead yet not too lively. In other words one of two opposing surfaces has some form of absorption with the other surface untreated. In a living room situation it becomes a creative acoustics and decorating exercise.

 

I've set up several rooms where flooring and arrangements were set for the most part and where you do what you can. I also built a sound playback and recording room with only a few constraints and was able to pick room dimensions and construction for optimizing acoustics. When I ventured into that I got ideas along the way from my audio friends and dealers plus added my own experimenting so you are wise to seek input. For me now I just wish I still had the sound studio room as we had to relocate recently - but that's another topic...

 

Anyway the decoupled floor option may not be feasible for you but I thought you'd want to consider it at least.

 

Good luck and good listening.

 

Steve

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I do not know why anybody dislikes bamboo floors except if one tries to avoid environmental conscious products. I have some edge grain floor and they are very sturdy like: Bamboo Flooring: Prefinished Plyboo Edge Amber

A small high pile rug positioned at the floor reflection point is much better than a conventional rug. Of course having a reflective surface like a coffee table with a chess game at that reflection point would negate any acoustical effect.

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Reflection points, freedom from vibrations from the speaker cabinets to the floor, damping of the air-borne vibrations, damping of the floor resonances back into the room, and the difference between thickness and damping of both underlay and carpet all need to factored in just for the sound quality.

 

Greg

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How much better?

 

To my taste much more better than then 12% price increase from the hard Maple.

 

If the WAF is an important factor in the wood choice you can add some tint to make the Maple looks similar to Oak.

 

Regarding Bamboo I can't think in this as a hard wood, they use their strong fibers in combination with some plastic "resins", because there is a lot of water in his high cellulose content. I confess I never tried Bamboo in a music room as a floor, but also I wouldn't try it because of his ultra fast growing. Good woods never has a high growing rate. There are exceptions in an specific low growing wood, Teak, that has the worst musicality characteristics, thanks to high silica and oil content.

 

Bamboo is very common on this 'green' days of "safe the planet". Like the "Cañuela India" with some content of the Cannabis. Both are very good in the CO2 exchange and 40% faster that traditional trees. Also Bamboo floors looks very nice to the eyes.

 

Roch

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I deleted a rant about bamboo earlier, and am happy to see Roch picked up some of my issues. As noted, bamboo is not wood or even of a wood structure. It is columnar tubules bonded with resin. On some levels is is not much better than particle board or MDF in vibration characteristics. Homogeneous materials are not desired. I also wonder if it is refinish-able and sand-able. Do the fibers will ever lay down again once it is sanded;does it off gas when burned? I dunno, but I smell another DIY home improvement debacle with that stuff. For a durable floor, maple is good, but white (not red) oak is tougher and likely the most cost effective domestic US flooring product. If you are looking to go green, consider using a boiled linseed oil and wax finish. That floor would last for the life of a typical American home. Gotta wonder what 100 year old resin will look like...

To my taste much more better than then 12% price increase from the hard Maple.

 

If the WAF is an important factor in the wood choice you can add some tint to make the Maple looks similar to Oak.

 

Regarding Bamboo I can't think in this as a hard wood, they use their strong fibers in combination with some plastic "resins", because there is a lot of water in his high cellulose content. I confess I never tried Bamboo in a music room as a floor, but also I wouldn't try it because of his ultra fast growing. Good woods never has a high growing rate. There are exceptions in an specific low growing wood, Teak, that has the worst musicality characteristics, thanks to high silica and oil content.

 

Bamboo is very common on this 'green' days of "safe the planet". Like the "Cañuela India" with some content of the Cannabis. Both are very good in the CO2 exchange and 40% faster that traditional trees. Also Bamboo floors looks very nice to the eyes.

 

Roch

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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One reason is that the "eco sustainability" claims are bogus. The crop is grown primarily in parts of China where they clear-cut forests to plant crops of bamboo. Another is the high plastic content.

This reply sounds to me more like generalized, unqualified propaganda than an analysis of ecological impact. Bamboo is grown like any other forestry or agricultural product under quite variable conditions and therefore has to be verified for a specific product. There are even several certification processes like FSC in place.

With plastic content I assume you mean binders which can vary significantly between different manufactures in amount and chemical composition. Most contain not more than other engineered wood flooring products. Stranded products (no matter what wood etc.) have the highest binder content. The highest "plastic" content is carpet including sublayment (with very few and expensive exceptions)

If you are looking for flooring with the least environmental impact: repurposed timber flooring nailed down to the subfloor (as long it is not shipped across a continent).

A general comment about damping sufaces. Most damping surfaces like carpets or drapes are absorbing high to medium frequencies (above 400 - 1000 Hz depending on material and thickness). This can lead to a dull sound signature as the reflected sound is shifted to a lower frequency spectrum than the direct sound.

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The rest of the house is white oak flooring, so that would be the simplest solution. Maple stained to match sounds like a worthwhile option.

 

The current carpet is wool, with a high-quality pad (I looked). Anything I replace it with has to be as good or better quality.

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One reason is that the "eco sustainability" claims are bogus. The crop is grown primarily in parts of China where they clear-cut forests to plant crops of bamboo. Another is the high plastic content.
This reply sounds to me more like generalized, unqualified propaganda than an analysis of ecological impact. Bamboo is grown like any other forestry or agricultural product under quite variable conditions and therefore has to be verified for a specific product. There are even several certification processes like FSC in place.

With plastic content I assume you mean binders which can vary significantly between different manufactures in amount and chemical composition. Most contain not more than other engineered wood flooring products. Stranded products (no matter what wood etc.) have the highest binder content. The highest "plastic" content is carpet including sublayment (with very few and expensive exceptions)

I suspect that Prof Scott was more pointing out that bamboo flooring is not automatically a eco sustainable product...

 

Like everything proper due diligence is required ... the problem is being from China due diligence is often tricky to do.

 

If you are looking for flooring with the least environmental impact: repurposed timber flooring nailed down to the subfloor (as long it is not shipped across a continent).

Very good suggestion.

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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