R2R DAC owners and lovers

[hvbias]

On 5/24/2018 at 1:22 AM, opus101 said:

There are TDA1387 designs coming up from the DIY quarter - on this thread there's PCB data you can download for free to get your own boards made : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/313395-tda1387-dac-pcb-front.html

 

I have a design with TDA1387 called 'lingDAC' which I talk about here : https://hackaday.io/project/27001-audiophile-sounding-dac-for-almost-no-money

 

I agree with your subjective impressions @atmfrank - the primary advantage of my own lingDAC's sound compared to the mainstream S-D DACs is in the realm of dynamics.

 

Interested in trying some of these designs. How do you know the TDA DAC chips from China are genuine?

[opus101]

I don't but not knowing doesn't bother me because they're invariably delivering excellent SQ in the right circuit.

[Melvin]

I recently purchased an MHDT Lab Pagoda (PCM1704, NOS, no digital filter, no negative feedback, and tube buffered). This DAC has been on my radar since its release a couple of years ago. They state the tube needs a month to burn-in but, at first blush, I like what I hear. This is only my 2nd true NOS DAC, the 1st being the dB Audio Labs Tranquility (TDA1543). I also have a Bifrost Multibit (NOS only at 176.4 and 192). I guess you can call me a fan. 

[buonassi]

On 5/25/2018 at 12:05 PM, med_designer said:

Please report back your findings.

 

Update on Metrum Amethyst after a good bit of time with it:

 

Well, it's easily the best DAC I've owned / spent any time with.  That's not saying much because I've only owned a few DACs and they've all been SDM, well, except the schiit modi multibit I had for about a year, and I honestly can't remember what it sounded like (sorry).  

 

Upon first listen, after an amplifier muted warm up,  the change was night and day.  I just love when you can hear something different and it's that apparent.  Two more minutes of listening was all it took to tell me it wasn't just different, but subjectively better.  Next level reached.  It instantly confirmed my decision to spend this much money on a component.  I really though I was topping out with what DACs could do.  Boy was I proven wrong.  This isn't even "end game" TOTL so I wonder what the Pavane or higher up the Metrum scale gets you.....

 

I really liked my iFi iDAC2 in NOS mode (except the staging) and that's what tempted me to go all in with NOS.  With the metrum being done on a true resistor ladder network - whatever impact that has on sound - I dunno.  But I like the Amethyst, a lot.  

 

One thing I did notice with this Amethyst DAC is the holographic stage it retains - good depth to it.  The iFi iDAC2 lost depth and sound stage became flat when I switched it to NOS mode. 

 

Now I did get this holographic sound from my sabre based DAC, but it came at the expense of unnaturally forced details and blurred transients.  It was also "swooshy" sounding (not in the digititis sense but vertigo sense).  

 

Here, with the amethyst, I get a great sense of holography and no swooshy vertigo feeling.  While the dynamics aren't out of this world, the transients are excellent.  It sounds like real percussive music, not a representation of music.

 

I honestly feel like I have the best of both worlds:  the holographic soundstage AND the perfect transient response.  Add in that it sounds very natural and not forced, yet still very detailed, and it's a winner.  

 

I know this was more a blurb on NOS vs OS DACs, but the Amethyst being 2r2 I suppose still needs some love on this thread as well.   I also wish I could compare it to other R2R DACs for you guys, but that'll come in time, I suppose. 

 

I honestly feel the sound quality improvement I've experienced since upgrading has been worth twice what I paid for this unit and worth the MSRP all day long.

 

I should also mention that Metrum's front man (Cees Ruijtenberg) answered a question I had on their forum, so they seem to be responsive to their customer base.  This is a good thing.  

 

[KingRex]

I have taken possession of my Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC.  Very nice.  A solid improvment over my already fine RT Audio USB Ultra Orpheus EX.  Music is more clear and full. Extension is excellent.  A very natural sound.  I am very much liking it. 

 

MED. The blue light.  I have this issue with all sorts of gear.  Take a tiny bit of cotton and tuck it into the light hole with a tooth pick. Problem solved.  If you shred it even and pack it just right, enough light comes through to let you know it's on.

 

I have been through 4 DAC at my house now.  This is by far the best. As I flesh out my real opinion and have a chance to listen to it back to back with my RT, I will put together more detailed impressions.

[wanta911]

I run both a NOS R2R DAC and a Delta Sigma DAC. After 2 years of periodically switching between them in my setup I decided that they both warranted a permanent place, depending on the material I was listening to and my mood:

 

Metrum Pavane

Primare DAC30

 

The Pavane has a more laid back presentation with a slightly recessed soundstage compared to the Primare and I like to use it particularly for female voices and funnily enough.....electronic music. It's great for those late night chill out sessions. I'm listening to Lisa Gerrard's Duality album with it as I type....superb!

 

The Primare for me is a giant killer compared to other Delta Sigma DACS I've owned and heard - smooth, neutral and not a hint of glare with the Crystal CS4398 chip. It has deep punchy bass with a more forward presentation and deeper soundstage than the Metrum. It's my go to DAC for rock music in particular.

[biosailor]

1 hour ago, wanta911 said:

I run both a NOS R2R DAC and a Delta Sigma DAC. After 2 years of periodically switching between them in my setup I decided that they both warranted a permanent place, depending on the material I was listening to and my mood:

 

Metrum Pavane

Primare DAC30

 

The Pavane has a more laid back presentation with a slightly recessed soundstage compared to the Primare and I like to use it particularly for female voices and funnily enough.....electronic music. It's great for those late night chill out sessions. I'm listening to Lisa Gerrard's Duality album with it as I type....superb!

 

The Primare for me is a giant killer compared to other Delta Sigma DACS I've owned and heard - smooth, neutral and not a hint of glare with the Crystal CS4398 chip. It has deep punchy bass with a more forward presentation and deeper soundstage than the Metrum. It's my go to DAC for rock music in particular.

Good point! So far, I was convinced of staying with R2R DACs, but I am very much tempted of buying a Delta-Sigma DAC. I‘ve read so many raving reviews about Benchmark‘s DAC3 that I might just as well purchase. And I‘ll have my Aqua La Voce S2 upgraded to the S3. I‘m very curious how the two compare to each other.

[Timb5881]

I have a Adcom GDC 600 that is an 18 bit R2R dac.  Still use it even through it is 25 years old.

[KingRex]

My Mojo Audio is broken in.  I had a chance to really listen last friday.  It pinned me to my seat for 5 songs.  I have never heard a more musical, engaging and wonderful sound from my system.  The sound staging is phenomenal.  During Diana Krall Live in Paris I had an epiphany.  I always though I was listening to music from the crowd.  I suddenly realized I am on the stage.  This is one amazing DAC.  Far beyond the entry level dac for $1,400 I owned.  Still crushes the Mid level $6,500 and top of the line $8,000 DAC I also had prior.  It's really that good.  I am trying to make a real write up but I have about 3 pages of gibberish I need to clean up.  I highly recommend it.  I get nothing for saying this.  I just love the product.  

[trappy]

On 7/15/2018 at 9:43 AM, biosailor said:

Good point! So far, I was convinced of staying with R2R DACs, but I am very much tempted of buying a Delta-Sigma DAC. I‘ve read so many raving reviews about Benchmark‘s DAC3 that I might just as well purchase. And I‘ll have my Aqua La Voce S2 upgraded to the S3. I‘m very curious how the two compare to each other.

I would be very interested in this comparison. Please post when/if you make it. Thanks!

[Reggy]

On 5/30/2018 at 2:14 PM, jaaptina said:

I'm looking at the Audio gd r2r 11. At 349 Euro it must be the cheapest r2r today. However it's almost a year on the market and it already seems to be forgotten. Just a few old post on Head-fi. Seems one would be better of with the popular (not r2r) Pro-Ject pre box S2. Any one knows why the Audio gd r2r 11 isn't popular? 

All I know is that for some reason there is a polarized crowd with Audio gd. From the opinions I've gathered though, there implementation is really garbage. Sure you can find stuff wrong with almost anything but with the overseas lack of support and general gut feeling, their name is one of those companies that really should be scratched off the DAC list. Just forget about Audio GD.

 

If my comment on that was a bit useless, perhaps start with a list of top DACs I am gathering for myself in respect to cost/performance ratios or getting the most out of the money you spend. Most I have not heard, but in regards to their cost it appears to many trusted ears they are worth it if they are in your budget.

 

Remember a DAC that does not perform as well at least for technicalities like dynamics or resolution may actually be less preferable to listen to, compare to a DAC that falls short of those technicalities but portrays a more musical presentation and sounds "nice". That's all where preference comes in, and will have to be honed on in for your ears. It's weird to hear that but it's true to a certain extent and at least dependent upon the synergy of your speakers and system and whether they were in the more neutral or exciting camp on portraying the music.

 

What I am saying is for a variety of reasons, a DAC can still shine to a pair of ears and may be easier to "vibe" on than an ultra resolving neutral DAC that sounds in the analytical and non-musical camp (many can enjoy that or have a system which synergizes with that). For a lot of audiophiles it's hard to understand that, but simply put a lot of them are analyzing the music for raw resolution and other technicalities rather than enjoying the music as much as an average person with untrained ears. The key is to understand that, and once in a while let go and get into a more emotive state of mind and enjoy the music rather than analyze the technicalities "on paper". From that emotive state you will be more able to see whether the DAC suits your listening experience.

 

1.      Chord Dave

2.      Holo Audio CYAN

3.      RME ADI-2 DAC

4.      Soekris dac1421 (or 1541)

5.      Denafrip Ares

6.      Yggdrasil Analog 2/USB Gen 5

7.      Metrum Pavane (L1 & the new L3)

8.      Aqua La Voce S2

9.      Massdrop RDAC Airist R2-R DAC

 

 

[Doak]

On 8/25/2018 at 6:04 PM, Reggy said:

Just forget about Audio GD.

 

Dubious advice, at best. 

[Reggy]

1 hour ago, Doak said:

Dubious advice, at best. 

I know at heart it sounds like this, but honestly, its more about warning someone on some of the lack of overseas support for the product, more importantly how their products, particularly the Audio-GD 19 really is truly garbage according to a handful of very credible reviewers at SBAF and other overall opinions.

 

Links to site links https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/another-discrete-r2r-ladder-multibit-dac-this-ones-from-audio-gd-thei?sort_order=desc

 

I hate to be the one to put a nail in the coffin or point fingers to a single company, but my quest to find a DAC told me to trust my gut and avoid them like the plague. I mean..., just look at there website... and the pictures of their kids at work. I like the enthusiasm for audio but in the end if you do enough research on first hand experiences from well acquainted reviewers on their products the implementation is just not there.

 

I consider a lot of reviews, but more importantly I get to be acquainted with what's good and what's not worthy as I sift through personal preference, and the realm outside of that and it surely does save a lot of time and discussion when I get to make a mental note to cross off DACs to forget, let alone entire companies.

 

There is a very helpful reviewer out there that starts with a T whose list and the site he is on makes life in the audio world so much more simpler...

 

Crossing off in the audio world is good.

[firedog]

On 8/26/2018 at 2:04 AM, Reggy said:

All I know is that for some reason there is a polarized crowd with Audio gd. From the opinions I've gathered though, there implementation is really garbage. Sure you can find stuff wrong with almost anything but with the overseas lack of support and general gut feeling, their name is one of those companies that really should be scratched off the DAC list. Just forget about Audio GD.

Audio gd is very popular in Australia. Anyone interested should go over to the stereo.net.au  forum and ask about a specific model. You can probably find people there who are familiar and can give you the run down. AFAIK from reading there, some of the models are well liked and some not. 

[Doak]

Having owned a couple of Audio-GD DACs I rate them as incredible values.

Support from Kingwa and his staff, when needed, is nearly instantaneous. 

Check out threads on Head-Fi for more.

[Reggy]

1 hour ago, Doak said:

Having owned a couple of Audio-GD DACs I rate them as incredible values.

Support from Kingwa and his staff, when needed, is nearly instantaneous. 

Check out threads on Head-Fi for more.

Which 2 have you had, and I'm guessing since you've had more than 1 could you compare to some of other DACs that many consider value?

 

I'm not sure what price bracket were talking about for Audio GD but here would be a short list of value many would agree in terms of their sound and performance for what they cost:

 

200R RME ADI-2 DAC
100R Soekris dac1541
75R Schiit Gungnir MB

[atmfrank]

I am not a fan of hateful, and in the case, unqualified opinion. What exactly is the specific experience with Audio-gd that leads Peggy to write such rubbish? 

 

I have one Audio-gd product in my stack, the compact Precision-3 power amp for a secondary system. Since it's unrelated to the content here, I will only say this: it is a high-quality product for a bargain price with excellent and responsive support and amazing sound. 

 

If you want to read a reliable review of their R2R DAC, go here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/audio-gd/1.html

 

[kravi4ka]

I recently upgraded a Resolution Cantata 2.0 to 3.0 and it was more than worth the 3K. Not many people talk about it as it is quite expensive and Jeff Kalt does not aggressively promote it everywhere but if you know about his Opus series which has always been regarded of one of the best digital devices I must tell you the Cantata 3.0 is one of the best there is. I have had and still have several R2R DACs - Audio Synthesis DAX2, Mark Levinson 360s, player like the Muse Electronics Erato II and Gryphon Mikado Mk2, dozens of pretty well engineered DACs and the Cantata 3.0 is much better than all of them, so much that I cannot listen to any of them any more. 

[Reggy]

On 8/28/2018 at 4:21 AM, kravi4ka said:

I recently upgraded a Resolution Cantata 2.0 to 3.0 and it was more than worth the 3K. Not many people talk about it as it is quite expensive and Jeff Kalt does not aggressively promote it everywhere but if you know about his Opus series which has always been regarded of one of the best digital devices I must tell you the Cantata 3.0 is one of the best there is. I have had and still have several R2R DACs - Audio Synthesis DAX2, Mark Levinson 360s, player like the Muse Electronics Erato II and Gryphon Mikado Mk2, dozens of pretty well engineered DACs and the Cantata 3.0 is much better than all of them, so much that I cannot listen to any of them any more. 

That sounds wonderful, but "better" needs to be described relative to a number of things. Does is sound more musical hiding some of the microdynamics, how is the presentation like? Is it soft sounding or a bit moist and thick in sound? Does is lean towards a more warm or cool sound? Would you describe the presentation to be more focused on the detail and the subtleties of the recording? What speakers or headphones are you listening too?

 

Given its price how would it compare to one of the best DACs of its price, of course the Yggydrasil, would you think it would match the performance of that or is it in the preferences which make it better.

 

I believe changes or "upgrades" can be heard but preferences and synergy is all what it comes down to when describing something like that DAC in its competition. Music probably won't sound that much better than its surrounding competition at that price level, not saying it isn't a good sounding DAC and perhaps they are having a hard time getting the word out, but I think we all know what I mean when putting the brakes on the hype train.

[Reggy]

On 8/27/2018 at 4:01 PM, atmfrank said:

I am not a fan of hateful, and in the case, unqualified opinion. What exactly is the specific experience with Audio-gd that leads Peggy to write such rubbish? 

 

I have one Audio-gd product in my stack, the compact Precision-3 power amp for a secondary system. Since it's unrelated to the content here, I will only say this: it is a high-quality product for a bargain price with excellent and responsive support and amazing sound. 

 

If you want to read a reliable review of their R2R DAC, go here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/audio-gd/1.html

 

Aside from a variety of useful talk amongst the forums (yes there is good and bad feedback), its this review that has tainted a very bad picture on the "quality" of the sound coming from this company: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-gd-singularity-19-dac-comprehensive-review-and-impressions.4134/

It seems like a serious review considering the track record of that reviewer.

 

The same people on some of the sites (HF) who have claimed the Ares is more superior to the Yggdrasil and Spring DAC also claim that the Audio GD-19 is better than the Denafrip Ares. So its in those extremes that you can not trust other people in knowing what constitutes quality.

 

I am of course singling out that particular DAC but it stands after hearing that review would be enough to scratch everything they make off my list. There are certain "pro tools" even at the sub $1000 (Focusrite, Tascam) I would even gladly consider well over what the kids produce in their shop. Again they use high quality parts for some cases, but the implementation is just not there.

[Reggy]

On 8/27/2018 at 4:01 PM, atmfrank said:

If you want to read a reliable review of their R2R DAC, go here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/audio-gd/1.html

 

"If you take this burn-in at face value or as an incremental journey towards perfection, every time you listen, things should improve for a long time; unless the process wasn't linear and happened in spurts. Either way, judge too soon and you're bound to misread."

 

You do realize there is a a lot of satire there, hopefully you catched that. If you meant the review is reliable because he is making fun of the promises of the quality of sound improving with a whopping 1000 hours of burning in with " Mr. Qinghua already mentioned burn-in as the second line of his mantra" than I agree with you as he is continously insisting if the DAC sounds bad then it will improve after burn in.

 

Also 6moons are sometimes compensated, so even in the last page he gives it a thumbs up you've got to be pretty naive if you think 6moons really trustworthy for a good buy.

 

[natemact]

2 hours ago, Reggy said:

Aside from a variety of useful talk amongst the forums (yes there is good and bad feedback), its this review that has tainted a very bad picture on the "quality" of the sound coming from this company: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-gd-singularity-19-dac-comprehensive-review-and-impressions.4134/

It seems like a serious review considering the track record of that reviewer.

 

The same people on some of the sites (HF) who have claimed the Ares is more superior to the Yggdrasil and Spring DAC also claim that the Audio GD-19 is better than the Denafrip Ares. So its in those extremes that you can not trust other people in knowing what constitutes quality.

 

I am of course singling out that particular DAC but it stands after hearing that review would be enough to scratch everything they make off my list. There are certain "pro tools" even at the sub $1000 (Focusrite, Tascam) I would even gladly consider well over what the kids produce in their shop. Again they use high quality parts for some cases, but the implementation is just not there.

You took Hands review of a non-burnt-in dac as a Bat Signal that all of their products must stink accordingly? You have to be trolling here, correct?

 

Has anyone here ever fired up their Yggy from cold? Exactly, some dacs can take days to sound good, and yes burn-in is real, caps must from, period. 1000 hours is ridic tho and 2-300 has always been my clock on burn-in...something I have a lot of experience with considering I've called working at a HiFi shop my day job for the last 10+ years.

 

Hands still uses HD650's. With all the advancement in hps, 650's, still? Any reviewer providing their opinion on gear that SHOULD mate with hps costing multiples what 650's do shouldn't even be allowed to use said veiled hps in the chain. 

 

I get what having a "reference" means. I've seen and heard mixes made on such cheap loudspeakers that I couldn't believe how great the end results were. But, this is different. I'd challenge a 650 or 600/6xx lover to try and pick out the differences between a Hugo 1 and 2...easy to hear with say...HiFiMan Sundara's at only $500, which is my point. Sundara's are not transparent nor resolving enough, nor do they process the strong enough technical abilities (ie: layering, imaging, SS size...) to reveal what's between the two dacs, and yet, they're still much better suited to the task then 650's.

 

This attack on Audio GD is quite hilarious actually (almost as hilarious as the photo Hands used for his "review" lol). I've never owned any of their products but listened to quite a few over the years and they happen to make high-value products and the fact that you learned the word "implementation" in no way qualifies you to take a piss on the company.

 

BTW please explain to me how exactly you don't agree with their "implementation" LOL. You mean how they implement their children into forced labor, correct? Sorry, but I'm just too easily annoyed when I see someone crapping all over a company when..

1. The accuser has never even heard one of the company's products...fawking unbelievable to tell you the truth!
2. They toss out HiFi jargon merely to sound smart

You can catch me on HF under same username for credentials.

 

PS - I just saw that you assume (trend with you) ALL usb cables sound the same. To be clear it was a Monoprice cable will sound the same as the $300 Phasure Audio cable. Well dammit! I wasted all this on you LOL. Really should've vetted you prior to even bothering.

[kravi4ka]

Indeed my statement needs a bit more to give it a perspective, I will write a short review or a kind of review asap.

[buonassi]

21 hours ago, natemact said:

Hands still uses HD650's. With all the advancement in hps, 650's, still? Any reviewer providing their opinion on gear that SHOULD mate with hps costing multiples what 650's do shouldn't even be allowed to use said veiled hps in the chain. 

I think I'd have to agree with this especially.  I always wondered how he's able to discern sonic traits with 'meh' cans. They are lacking in resolution compared to the focal drivers, irrespective of FR.  Tonality is great on the HD650, better on the 600 IMO, but man does it come at the cost of resolving power.  

[Reggy]

21 hours ago, buonassi said:

I think I'd have to agree with this especially.  I always wondered how he's able to discern sonic traits with 'meh' cans. They are lacking in resolution compared to the focal drivers, irrespective of FR.  Tonality is great on the HD650, better on the 600 IMO, but man does it come at the cost of resolving power.  

That is a good point, I only auditioned the 650's once but it was a quick 30 seconds so I can't remember the sound. The general consensus is a bit more on the warm veiling side. I guess once you get to know your headphones than you would be able to judge all DACs so there must certainly be something wrong about DAC, I don't think he is a bullshit reviewer however if it really comes to synergy, perhaps the Audio GD 19 sounds much better on brighter cans as it may veil the sound in a positive warm way, (I have not heard it so I can only guess).

 

Regardless there is a general false hype or overvaluation of their products for a legit group who have been exposed to higher end products. I don't know the price range however unless your on a budget sub $350 and they happen to have something in the price range my gut feeling if they don't have good value above that and a lot of people would be better off wasting there time talking and purchasing a mediocre DAC