R2R DAC owners and lovers

[med_designer]

Hello -

 

I am interested in purchasing a new R2R DAC. Have a few general questions for those that have already made a purchase and use them in their systems:

 

 

1. Which R2R DAC did you choose and are you happy with your choice?

 

2. Did you buy a NOS R2R DAC?

 

3. Thoughts on the discrete vs. chip based approach to the design?

 

3. If you could get any R2R DAC what would you get? Currently looking at a Mojo Audio and Schiit DACs. Holo Springs and Aqua were also mentioned as options to conider.

 

 

Having read a few threads on this there are definielly many opinions on this approach and are not looking to start controversy. These are questions from someone who is truly interested in R2R.  If you do not like the R2R approach I appreciate that but would like to keep the responses focused if possible.

 

Thanks for the responses

 

[audiventory]

31 minutes ago, med_designer said:

Having read a few threads on this there are definielly many opinions on this approach and are not looking to start controversy. These are questions from someone who is truly interested in R2R.  If you do not like the R2R approach I appreciate that but would like to keep the responses focused if possible.

 

R2R is too complicate in implementation. Delta sigma based DAC is easier in design. I'm not sure that R2R can achieve sigma-delta PCM DAC's potential abilities in general case.

But base technology is only potencial abilities. No warranties. Final result defined by several factors: power supply, electronic components, scheme, clock generator, etc.

Read my thoughts here https://samplerateconverter.com/educational/r2r-ladder-dac-vs-sigma-delta

[iansen]

To date, the best DAC that's been in my system has been a R2R DAC: the Schiit Yggdrasil. It's an unusual machine: it takes a few days to warm up aka thermally stabilise and during this warm up period the sound changes noticeably. Also (as per the designer's own comments on another forum) it sounds better on the balanced outputs rather than standard RCA phono outputs.

 

The best CD player that I have heard was the Marantz CD94. For many years I attributed its amazing sound to its use of the legendary TD1541 chip. But it was also a R2R machine, so that may have had something to do with it as well.

 

Yes, I think the Yggdrasil is great - the DACS I have been through include ones made by Linn, Stello, Musical Fidelity, Naim and Chord, and the Yggdrasil betters all of them.

 

 

[Solstice380]

11 minutes ago, iansen said:

To date, the best DAC that's been in my system has been a R2R DAC: the Schiit Yggdrasil

 

Errrr, I think the Yggy uses a DAC chip and is not a R-2R ladder DAC.  

[davide256]

8 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

Errrr, I think the Yggy uses a DAC chip and is not a R-2R ladder DAC.  

Its not a delta sigma DAC either, it is its own "multibit" beast for design. Label aside, the sound  is very like NOS DAC's.

[iansen]

40 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

Errrr, I think the Yggy uses a DAC chip and is not a R-2R ladder DAC.  

 

Hi Solstice380,

 

In his review of the Yggdrasil in The Absolute Sound, Robert Harley states:

 

"...Moffatt selected an unusual DAC—a 20-bit R/2R ladder device from Analog Devices (the AD5791)...."

 

It may be that I am getting confused with my terminology, but from this I came to the assumption that the Yggdrassil is a R2R ladder DAC.

 

[TubeDriver]

1 hour ago, iansen said:

 

Hi Solstice380,

 

In his review of the Yggdrasil in The Absolute Sound, Robert Harley states:

 

"...Moffatt selected an unusual DAC—a 20-bit R/2R ladder device from Analog Devices (the AD5791)...."

 

It may be that I am getting confused with my terminology, but from this I came to the assumption that the Yggdrassil is a R2R ladder DAC.

 

 

You are right in that the Yggy uses a R2R DAC, however it is not a non-filtering DAC like the Holo Spring.

[TubeDriver]

I own a Holo Spring LVL 1 DAC which I very much enjoy. It is a true R2R NOS DAC (although it has the ability to OS too).  I have owned chip based NOS DACs (ie 1543) but the Holo is MUCH better.   That said, I have heard chip NOS DACs that are VERY good.   I don’t think it matters whether it is discrete or chip based, both ways can achieve top notch sonics. I have owned Schitt Bifrost and did a DAC shootout at my place between my Holo Spring and the Gungnir last weekend.  The Gungnir sounded very good but more like a typically hi-fi DAC.  Bass was tighter and things were very focused and controlled.  The Holo Spring was more energetic and alive sounding IMHO.  I preferred my Holo Spring but I could see some people preferring the Gungnir.

 

I did a shootout a couple months ago between my Holo Spring and an Aqua La Scala and in that comparison the La Scala sounded best.  But it is considerably more expensive than the Holo Spring and this was in a friend’s system that was setup for the La Scala.

 

The Holo Spring is just an amazing sounding DAC that is a steal at the price.  It easily beats my previous DAC (PS Audio PWD II).

[biosailor]

6 hours ago, TubeDriver said:

I own a Holo Spring LVL 1 DAC which I very much enjoy. It is a true R2R NOS DAC (although it has the ability to OS too).  I have owned chip based NOS DACs (ie 1543) but the Holo is MUCH better.   That said, I have heard chip NOS DACs that are VERY good.   I don’t think it matters whether it is discrete or chip based, both ways can achieve top notch sonics. I have owned Schitt Bifrost and did a DAC shootout at my place between my Holo Spring and the Gungnir last weekend.  The Gungnir sounded very good but more like a typically hi-fi DAC.  Bass was tighter and things were very focused and controlled.  The Holo Spring was more energetic and alive sounding IMHO.  I preferred my Holo Spring but I could see some people preferring the Gungnir.

 

I did a shootout a couple months ago between my Holo Spring and an Aqua La Scala and in that comparison the La Scala sounded best.  But it is considerably more expensive than the Holo Spring and this was in a friend’s system that was setup for the La Scala.

 

The Holo Spring is just an amazing sounding DAC that is a steal at the price.  It easily beats my previous DAC (PS Audio PWD II).

 

Aqua has a kess costly R2R DAC, the La Voce S2. This one is in the ballpark of the Holo Spring. The La Voce S2 uses the old Burr Brown PCM1704 chip. Since recently, there‘s an upgrade to the S3 board available that replaces the Burr Brown chip with an in-house designed Länder chip. Have a look at http://www.aquahifi.com/la_voce_S3_update.html

The new S3 is still more expensive than the Holo. I‘ll have my S2 upgraded for sure. I just love those Aqua DACs!

[Solstice380]

9 hours ago, iansen said:

 

Hi Solstice380,

 

In his review of the Yggdrasil in The Absolute Sound, Robert Harley states:

 

"...Moffatt selected an unusual DAC—a 20-bit R/2R ladder device from Analog Devices (the AD5791)...."

 

It may be that I am getting confused with my terminology, but from this I came to the assumption that the Yggdrassil is a R2R ladder DAC.

 

 

@davide256 and @TubeDriver clarified it well.  It is a hybrid approach that uses the AD chip and not a resistor network.  And it oversamples and uses Moffat’s “mega burrito” filter.   So I guess a little of both, but not NOS R-2R ladder.

[mansr]

7 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

@davide256 and @TubeDriver clarified it well.  It is a hybrid approach that uses the AD chip and not a resistor network.  And it oversamples and uses Moffat’s “mega burrito” filter.   So I guess a little of both, but not NOS R-2R ladder.

The resistor network is inside the chip.

[Solstice380]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

The resistor network is inside the chip.

 

Thanks for clarifying that.   I didn’t understand it well enough. ? ?

[TubeDriver]

2 hours ago, biosailor said:

 

Aqua has a kess costly R2R DAC, the La Voce S2. This one is in the ballpark of the Holo Spring. The La Voce S2 uses the old Burr Brown PCM1704 chip. Since recently, there‘s an upgrade to the S3 board available that replaces the Burr Brown chip with an in-house designed Länder chip. Have a look at http://www.aquahifi.com/la_voce_S3_update.html

The new S3 is still more expensive than the Holo. I‘ll have my S2 upgraded for sure. I just love those Aqua DACs!

 

That will be interesting to hear.  The Aqua DACs are terrific sounding.  But at $1499 shipped to my door, the Holo Spring is really an amazing piece of gear.  I recently upgraded the USB input module from an older U8 XMOS to the newer XU208 XMOS module ($129 from the USA Holo distributer Kitsune) and noticed subtle/slight improvements in transparancy, detail and high freq/spatial cues.  I was very impressed with the circuit board and general layout of the Holo Spring while I had the cover off for the upgrade.  The ability to handle native DSD (up to 512) and PCM (up to 768kHZ) in a NOS R2R DAC is just icing on the cake!

[davide256]

I've heard the Yggdrasil but not the Holo Spring, seen reviews where the two are competitive. The Holospring  does support DSD

whereas with the Yggdrasil DSD to PCM conversion is required.

[Wiley]

Lampizator Atlantic.  Love it.

[sb6]

I absolutely love my Aqua Formula. IME modern R2Rs are the most natural and effortless. TotalDAC is another excellent R2R.

[hurka]

im using only R2R modules without Dsp,output stages and decoupling active components.(like msb)

digital feed lt3045's- Nesscap independent ucap banks

analog feed lt3045's- lt1963-lt1084-R core transformer- power regenerator

[bambadoo]

5 hours ago, Wiley said:

Lampizator Atlantic.  Love it.

That is a souped up soekris dac. Be aware that it is a new firmware out which improves things... 

 

http://www.soekris.dk/download.html

[jparvio]

I would be lost without my totaldac. Please don´t get me wrong, I do possess other more common dacs as well and like them  for different reasons.

 

But when it comes to living and loving, totaldac is the one.

[med_designer]

Thanks for all that have chimed in. Good to see an appreciation for the various R2R approaches. I opted to add a Mojo Audio v3 to my setup and have been running it in for a week or so. When playing Red Book 16/44.1 from my MCT450 I am using the v3. When playing SACD from the same transport I use the custom DIN connection to my D150.

 

The v3 has been an interesting experience. Without question there was an immediate low end weight that I had not experienced before. I am told this can be attributed to the choke input power supply. There are a number of other interesting approaches in the design as well leading to what I feel is a very musically engaging listening experience. I am liking the vibe of the music I am hearing and this is leading me to want to explore more of my collection. BTW, I still spin the little shinny discs. Similar to this who like vinyl - the interaction with the physical media is part of the experience I enjoy. 

 

Ascetically, the v3 is not fancy - but has a high build quality and is on the heavy side coming in at around 25 lbs. I actually like the low key design as it an "old-fashioned" look. My only complaint is I wish they had not used blue LEDS to indicate which input was selected as I do not care for them.  The upside is it is only bright when looking directly at it at eye level.

 

So for those who have not had great luck with digital or have been considering try vinyl again - consider on the various R2R DACS mentioned in this thread. All of them have interesting things to offer and you are bound to find one that is interesting to you. Here are a few links to get your exploration started if you are interested. These are the ones I can think of right now. Please add to the list so all of us or are interested can explore the various offerings out there. This is somewhat of a niche interest in a niche hobby. 

 

Aqua

http://www.aquahifi.com

 

Audio Note Kits

http://www.ankaudiokits.com/L5-DAC5.1-R-2R-Non-Oversampling-Digital-Tubed-DAC.html

 

Dennafrips

https://www.denafrips.com

 

Holo Audio

https://kitsunehifi.com/product/springdacgreen/

 

Lampizator

http://www.lampizatorna.com/level5/

 

Mojo Audio

https://www.mojo-audio.com/digital-to-analog-converters/

 

Shitt

http://www.schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

 

Total DAC

http://www.totaldac.com

 

 

Any links to technical articles you have found interesting would be great to. 

 

 

 

 

[KingRex]

Med. What other DAC have you heard.  I have the Mojo Audio server and after installing win server 2016, Roon, AO and HQ, I have the most stunning playback I gave ever gotten out of digital.

 

I currently use an RT Audio USB Orpheus EX DAC. Its a chip with transformer outputs.  It has good extension, clean tone, quiet,  its just a little soft.  It is very no fatiguing.  Its probably a good DAC, but I am being offered a trade in for a Rockna Wavedream SE for a good price.  Kind of swirling the bowl.  Keep very good or go for excelent.  I just wish I truely knew how my DAC sounded.  

 

Since the Mojo server is so good, I wonder about Ben's DAC.  

[Kimo]

I own an Aqua DAC and would recommend calling Well Pleased to line up an audition.  It is the only R2R dac that I have heard in a long time, so it is the only one that I can recommend.

 

With that said, I imagine that the R2R dacs will not match the linearity of their DS counterparts, but that most will perform better in the time domain.  How much of all this is particularly audible seems dubious to me.  Perhaps, it makes sense to bring in a comparably priced DS model to audition along side the R2R, when you have it in the system.

[med_designer]

KingsRex -

 

Over the years quite a few. Currently I use the McIntosh D150 for SACD/CD on it's custom DIN connector and the Mojo Audio V3 which I just received a week or so for CD. Before that I had used a Benchmark DAC1 HDR. Long before that I either used what was in my CD player or an external DAC such as a Apogee DA1000E with DC power supply.

 

When looking back at players/DACS I have liked and upgraded from I discovered the DAC chip itself was almost always an R2R ladder and some were NOS. This is what prompted me to revisit this tech. The discrete R2R approach is also interesting but some claim it is very difficult to get the tolerances on the resistors tight and consistent enough to be effective. However, the likes of dCS and others succesfully using this design seem to indicate they have overcome this issue.

 

Another interesting point on the Mojo v3, the designer stresses he importance of the power supply and how it provides power to the various parts of the DAC. I can say what I am hearing from it is making me happy. Less concerned with spectacular measurements that some DACS have and focusing on how it sounds and how I feel while listening to my favorite albums.

 

Oh, one more thing. I have read comments on how R2R DACs may have vinyl quality to their sound. The way I am currently describing it is a high quality tape based reel to reel system. I may change my mind on this but for now I think it is a good description.

 

Thanks for all the continued recommendations. BTW, would those of us who own a variety of the DACS mentioned be willing to write a mini review on our experiences? Might be fun and informative.

 

[kvik]

On 19/5/2018 at 5:37 AM, med_designer said:

Here are a few links to get your exploration started if you are interested. These are the ones I can think of right now. Please add to the list so all of us or are interested can explore the various offerings out there. 

Feel free to add from this list, it's fairly up-to-date

https://hoved-fi.dk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2845#p51472

 

[med_designer]

Thanks kvik - very comprehensive and detailed list. Clearly missed a few and quite a number that have been discussed here and some other forums.