Matching the Maggie

[baxtus]

If the 1.7's are anything like the older Magnepans I have owned in the past, they need a lot of power-amp capability if you want to position the speakers correctly (at about 1/3 the room length from the back wall) and to enable the speakers to deliver any useful bass.

 

See if you can audition at home.

 

[salwani]

Scot

 

With the maggies, did you consider OTL (output transformerless) amps ? There are a few issues with these, heat being one you cannot get around. And they need 8 ohm speakers. You can circumvent this by using autoformers to make the amp see an 8 ohm load. Or get 2 stereo OTLs and monostrap them to more than double its power and make it play nice with 4 ohm speakers. You can do this with Atma-Spheres and Graafs - not sure of other OTLs.

 

I am currently set up with a 20w stereo Graaf OTL (until i find another to go mono), driving 78db Stax electrostatics - the amp clipping is quite easy to do even in my small room. When in the mood to go louder I switch to a SS 50w class A Forte amp which can get the speakers to clip at which point, its all a bit too loud anyway.

 

But the immediacy and presence of the Graaf/OTL with electrostatics is something else.

 

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Interestingly, I still have a big a$$ Plinius SA-250 that puts out 450wpc of Class A into 4ohms. So, I think I have SS covered. But I am going to need a new circuit ....

 

;-)

 

I'll keep the Plinius to drive the Maggies, use the SETs to drive the de Capos, and use the subs & the Manley preamp for both.

 

[Andrew S.]

Hi Socrates

I wouldn't discount the Ref 110 beacuse of the numbers - remember these are tube watts. Their current delivery is huge as well.

The one I have heard extensively replaced a Plinius SA250 with absolutely no problem. Sounded a whole lot better to my ears as well. It was/is being used, inter alia, to drive stacked ESL57's, which also have a difficult impedence curve.

ARC make quality gear. My own suggestion would be to set up the Maggies in your home and ask the local dealers to bring around the combo's you want to try: it would be disappointing if they weren't prepared to.

Another favourite amp of mine is the McIntosh MC 275 V; While rated only 75watts the output is more like 90wpc. They are different to the ARC gear - fuller, denser, weighter bass, less dry less quick but more "musical" - ARC tend to the clinical. I believe you can run them as mono's. Actually all of the McIntosh gear is nice - just prone to the garish.

I agree about buying inhouse. It's designed to work together. The only mix and match I have heard that seemed to work well was a Herron Pre amp and a ARC VT 100 power amp driving some Thiels. Oh sorry to that I should add the Aussie (now defunct) Supretek and ..well..anything....but I digress.

Not all of the dac's with inbuilt pre's sound great - I have heard and didn't like the dCS Elgar's Pre. Sounded dreadful - collapsed the soundstage. Not sure where the BADA pre falls in all this but presumably you will be trying it out.

Some like the Class D amps. I've yet to get too excited about them.

Above all you will, I imagine, just have to audition. One man's feast is anothers famine.

 

Cheers

A

 

[Audio_ELF]

Chris commented... "My colleagues and I often talk about needing two systems. The more you think about your options the more it will drive you nuts."

 

Only two systems Chris? I could manage 3 or even 4 systems all that I would enjoy and find synergy in but sounding different...

 

Eloise

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I haven't actually considered this combo seriously. No reason, I guess, other than I haven't had much opportunity to listen to them. I did get to hear the Atma-Sphere 60 monos over at Earflappin's place, and they were great -- very clean and extended at both extremes. Now, Zeroes would definitely help with Maggies, but I'm thinking that 60wpc might be a bit light, though, and the higher output amps get pricey fast.

 

[johniboy]

And don´t forget the ACCUSTIC ARTS AMP II!

 

I was doing a similar research couple of months ago, had the same suspects on my list and ended up with the that monster. 40kg of steel... like a small refrigerator. but what a wonderful, clean sound. in europe these are the reference amps and the price is acceptable.

 

best!

 

[PierreDLC]

http://www.gryphon-audio.dk

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I've heard that ARC is a "classic" combo with the Magnepan, and FWIW, I've heard an ARC Reference system driving ML elecrrostats in one of the most "electrifying" audition I've ever heard. But it isn't very "tubey" -- it's rather lean, for a tube. I'm thinking Manley might be a touch more romantic.

 

[audiozorro]

Both will sound excellent but different. Bill Thalmann is a master for upgrading both if you're interested. Of course CJ is local so that is an additional plus.

 

[rlodad]

Scot,

I have been lurking here for a few months, and feel I have to comment. In my mind and with MY ears, I believe the following to be ABSOLUTE rules when putting together a Maggie system.

1. Buy the highest level Maggies you can afford up to the 3.6s. IMHO, the difference b/t the 3.6 and the 20.1 doesn't justify the price unless you have a HUGE room. I have not heard the 1.7s, but the difference b/t the 1.6 and 3.6, especially in the bass is incredible.

2. Buy the highest quality, highest power (current) amp you can afford. Many that you have listed do not sound good to my ears. Cary? No. Manley, not for the price. Bryston? Great specs, but I have never heard them sound right with Maggies. I have always liked HUGE power SS amps for Maggies. I use Musical Fidelity KWs with 3.6s and have the first system I don't think I'll replace until it dies, and I have audiophilia nervosa to as great an extent as any of y'all. If funding is an issue, I would neither buy a new amp nor used Maggies. Used Maggies are just a bad idea in general, and used amps are often a fraction of the cost of new ones meaning you can get what you need if you buy used or demo. I would look for MF KWs, new or used KW superchargers run through their line level inputs, or Ayre or Pass Labs class A/B amps. Best ratio of cost:sound with 1.7s or 3.6 IMHO.

3. Set up: place Maggies in Cardas configuration (See cardas website)if WAF allows, and imagine the speakers to be where the Mics were when the recording was made. Behind the speakers will be the performance in all its glory.

4. Why are you buying a preamp? Hasn't Chris taught us anything about the Berkeley? Drive your amp(s) with the BADA directly and get a high quality phono pre with volume control. EAR products come to mind in your price range. Save the 2-4K on the preamp. You will have to use two sets of interconnects and switch them in the amp's inputs when going from berkeley to phono, but small price to pay and better sound.

 

Hope it helps.

 

[Vade_Forrester]

You might consider the following for electronics

1. Audio Research DSi200 integrated ($6K) and PH5 phono pre ($2.5K)

2. NAD M2 Direct Digital Ampli?er ($6K) and you can get rid of your Alpha (!) since the amp is a DAC. NAD doesn't make a phono pre that matches the quality of the M2, so you'd have to get another brand, like the ARC PH5 above. If you think I'm nuts for recommending a NAD, check out Stereophile's review of the amp.

 

[davidR]

Have you checked out the ESL or Magtech amps from Sanders Sound Systems? He designs his own electrostats and high current amps and seems to know what he's doing. http://sanderssoundsystems.com/products

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Thanks for chiming in!

 

Your suggestions are pretty much in line with the Received Wisdom on Magnepans, so I am reasonably confident that I'd get good results that way. Much obliged.

 

That said, I'm not terribly enthusiastic about just buying a megawatt amp and being done with it. It's not that it just seems like a cheat (and it does, a little bit), I think that most folks with Magnepans actually over drive and over damp them. Yes, they do better with some current and some damping. But a damping factor > 1000 tends to, IMHO, dry them out too much -- a phenomena I think they're even more susceptible to than non-planar speakers. And my experience with Ayre and Pass would compound the problem with their inherently lean sound. I think Ayre can be great -- their KXR and MXR gear is what I used to demo the 20.1 and 3.6 -- but even at their exalted extremes, the sound, while clean, isn't really my cuppa. For comments on Pass, Jerry Seigel of 10Audio has some "family sound" comments that do not make me enthusiastic about driving Pass amps hard. I don't have much feeling around Musical Fidelity -- their KW amps are apparently very nice, and Michael Fremer is quite taken with them, as well as with their Superchargers. Nothing against Fremer but his tastes and mine tend not to line up well. Interestingly, other reviewers I have had good luck with have not been as enthusiastic as he.

 

That said, I think the Plinius is quite a beast and should do nicely. ;-)

 

I have tried running my Alpha direct, and unlike Chris, I was not overwhelmed by it. It's good, true, but the lack of an analog input (for my turntable!) is a show stopper. Also, I need a second input to allow for SACD playback. Interestingly, a good pre -- to me at least -- sounds better than the Alpha as a pre. I have very high hopes for that Manley 300b preamp. More testing to come ....

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I've read a lot about the Sanders Sound amps -- and they're very highly regarded for Class D amps. Very few reviews actually compare them to some of the more commonly known audiophile amps, but at least they appear stable down to 2 or even 1 ohm. Great for a Martin Logan. But a Maggie is generally an easier load than an ESL, so stability isn't so much the issue as sheer power. The issue, I think, is exactly how much power one truly needs to drive a Maggie well, and is one that is still fiercely debated it seems ....

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I think the new NAD amp is pretty nifty!

 

I'm going to stick with separates with a line out so I can drive some subs for that sub 40Hz response. Yes, I could drive them off the amp outs into the subs' speaker-level ins, but I want the option.

 

[rlodad]

Scot,

Just to be clear, I wasn't recommending just buying the highest power amp you can afford, and hoping for the best. I would never buy any amp for Maggies without listening to it first, and preferably in my room.

 

Interesting your take on the BADA run directly into an amp or not. I have to say, I was praying initially I would agree with your view, as I own a $5000 pre that I love with my turntable and phono pre, but even before and more so after extended listening, I found a HUGE difference with inputting the BADA directly into the amp. This was not subtle at all. I am sure there are other system synergies that come into play, but overall in my system the difference was massive.

 

I have not heard Plinus amps in a while, so I can't comment.

 

Obviously, there is no analog input on the BADA. It is not a preamp; it is a DAC with a digital volume control. That is why I recommend a phono pre with volume control- you have to switch interconnects when you go from phono to BADA, but I think it gives you the best sound from both sources for the least money.

 

Running a BADA without a preamp sounds like a cheat? Whoopee!!!!!! You know what buying a $5k pre that you use only as a volume control for your phono pre sounds like? A damn pity and waste of money! Trust me, I did it! Take the cheat- give up your old assumptions about what a system should be comprised of and get the sound you want for as little as possible.

 

How often do we get that?

 

Brad

 

[SteveChicago]

Socrates, how do you like the Alpha DAC with the new Maggies? I'm considering that along with others as a combination DAC/Pre with the 1.7s.

 

Thanks, Steve

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Well, hmm. Err. I don't really know ....

 

I actually ended up canceling my Maggie order and instead upgraded my Merlins instead.

 

Heh. Ahem.

 

[SteveChicago]

LMAO! Socrates that's too funny man! Does that mean I have to cancel my order too? LOL.

 

Good luck with the Merlins. I guess I'll have to let YOU know how the Mags sound with the DACS.

 

PS, Socrates now owes a nickel to each of us who responded to his thread.

 

Regards, Steve

 

[SteveChicago]

Brad,

 

By the way I agree with you 100% on bypassing the preamp. If, like me, you do not use analogue sources, the pre is (IMO) unnecessary. In fact, when I listened to the BADA and the Weiss DAC202, I thought both sounded noticeably better WITHOUT a preamp ... whether going directly to a SS amp or a tube amp.

 

Steve

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Well, in my defense, the Merlins are spectacular. I had managed to forget that somehow! And then I got so hung up on getting some tubes that getting a Maggie just seemed a bit orthogonal to all those competing desires ....

 

Tell you what, though. If everyone makes it to RMAF (I'm going to make a concerted effort to finally make it this year), I'll buy the first round. Chris has round 2. LOL.

 

 

 

[rlodad]

Unfortunately,I do listen to my turntable quite a lot. I therefore have to switch interconnects to my poweramp when going between BADA and Preamp/VPI. I wonder if this has sonic effects on the cables and/or components, but have convinced myself that if I run the Ayre/Cardas frequency sweep track between cable switches that all will be good in the listening world. I have absolutely no idea if that is actually true... More Audiophilia Nervosa in my life.

 

[SteveChicago]

rlodad,

 

how do you like the BADA with your Mag 3.6s? Have you tried running it direct to your amp?

 

Steve

 

[rlodad]

I have not only tried it, it is the only way I listen to digital sources.The sound is the best digital I have heard. I run the BADA direct into a Musical Fidelity KW750, fed by a mac G5 with a lynx card. When I want to listen to vinyl, I pull the BADA interconnects from the amp, and place the interconnects from the preamp, fed by phono preamp. I haven't heard the 1.7s. What do you think?