Matching the Maggie

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I'm looking to build a system around my Alpha and some Magnepan 1.7s. I need amp(s), a pre, and a phono stage.

 

Suggestions:

 

1:

Pre: Wyred4Sound STP SE

Amp: Bel Canto Reference 1000m

Phono: Graham Slee Reflex

 

2:

Pre/Phono: Aesthetix Janus

Amp: Aesthetix Atlas

 

3:

Pre: Parasound JC-2

Amps: Parasound JC-1

Phono: Graham Slee Reflex

 

4:

Pre: conrad-johnson CT-5

Amp: conrad-johnson ET-250

Phono: conrad-johnson TEA-2

 

5.

Pre: Cary SLP-05

Amps: Cary CAD 500 MB

Phono: Cary PH 302 MkII MM/MC

 

I tend to like to stay within families to avoid problems with system synergy ....

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I should mention that the price is a factor. Given the price of the speakers, I am really not interested in blowing too much more than $10k (if at all possible) on the amp/pre/phono. While some of those listed above are far in excess of this arbitrary limit, I can get them (perhaps) at a rather dramatic discount. Hence their inclusion.

 

Thanks in advance ....

 

[Andrew S.]

System shopping is great fun - I wish I was going with you.

The other option I wouldn't discount is Audio Research - which with Maggies are well proven. I'm partial to the Ref 110 and have heard it with everything from the Ref 3 to LS5 to LS17. I rather liked the LS17 the most. Not sure if it has a phono in it or not. But the Graham Slee's are a peach.

Ref 110's are about 6-7k secondhand on A'gon. LS17's are cheap - $1500 or so.

I'm also very curious about the new 200wpc mosfet integrated ARC has coming out.

Maggies love current.

 

Happy shopping!

 

 

[Elprior]

I don't kown much about the Maggies, but your selection rocks.

 

I would rate them that way :

1 < 3 < 4 < 2 < 5

 

The BelCantos are quite dry, maybe the Maggies would soften that, but...

JC1 are not refined enough, I am afraid.

The rest is pure bless.

 

Not sure if the same family is the best option.

I would try those 500MB (so much power and so classy) with either the STP se (which then would fit your bill) or the Janus. Never heard the STP se, but reviews are so good, that is a risk I would gladly take if I were to live in the US.

 

As always, I am afraid you will have to test those combinations for yourself.

 

Next week, I will be testing the Chapter Audio Précis 250s.

Not sure that's what you're looking for, since this is an integrated, and it exceeds the 10k$ requirement (I think so in the US), but it seems like the next best thing in class D world. I will let you know.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I thought about ARC -- until I saw the price of the Ref 210. $20k is a little crazy for only 200 watts! And I worry that the 110 will simply not provide enough power.

 

That said, I do want to add tubes if at all possible. Not really sure why other than I think they'll help to balance the speakers. Not to euphony or anything, but more to add a rather delicious roundness that I find quite appealing.

 

Just heard from a Cary dealer that the 500MBs aren't made anymore. Whoops. The replacements (1.500) are up to $8k now, which is getting a bit high.

 

As to system matching ... I tend to be a believer (deserved or not) that the best matches tend to come from vendors that build and voice gear to work well together. Not to say that mixing and matching won't yield great results, but rather that I'm not that interested in experimenting (and running the risk of a subpar match) with expensive gear.

 

[Purite Audio]

The most important aspect is finding an amp which drives your speakers properly, the maggies have exceptionally low impedance, you need an amp that is capable of current delivery into less than what 2 ohms?

The rest is largely subjective a valve pre/phono will inject a little 'life' into the system, perhaps a little noise/hum too!

Keith.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

My understanding is that this is absolutely true for electrostats, like the Martin Logans which were notorious for a dip to almost 1 ohm.

 

But these Maggies (or rather, their predecessors) have been shown to not dip below 4 ohms (Stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/595/index6.html). While not the easiest to drive, most solid state or hybrid amps should have little problem with that, no?

 

The question is, what amp has enough grunt but also brings some mid-range life to the party?

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Seems everyone is down on Cary for rampant QC & support issues. Ouch. Not inspiring. :-(

 

[barrows]

Have you considered PASS LABS electronics? Would you consider an integrated amplifier? You will need some good solid state muscle to get the best out of the 1.7s; I would suspect that the PASS 150 watt perchannel integrated would be a fine match with these speakers. Typically, good Class D amps can sound pretty good on Maggies as well, as long as the source component is not too dry in nature-another good match might be a tube pre (AR LS-26) with the bel canto class D amps. Audio Research also has the new class D integrated amp, which might be worth a listen as well (I have not heard it, but would listen because AR stuff is always worth a listen). There are a few good integrateds out there that offer great performance, if building a system now, I would definitely consider an integrated, as they save on complexity with no real downside.

 

[Elprior]

Barrows and Scott,

 

Agreed Barrows.

Scott, you would have exactly what your are looking for, synergy in one box !

What's more, a good integrated is always better than separate boxes of the same price tag (including the need for extra connections, power supply cables, free space on the rack, ...).

 

As for the Pass Labs components, I find they take far too long a time to warm-up and deliver sounds (I'm not even saying good sound, I have not be convinced so far).

 

Class D amps are ready and willing in less than 10 minutes from scratch. Along with there power consumption, you would feel like an ecological man

Still not sure if the Bels would not be too dry, but at least, they are really not much dependent on the load you can present them.

 

I think Wired4sound is doing a little mod of its own on the IcePower circuit. 500W iirc. That should be more than enough, and you could also take the pre.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I was considering the Pass Labs, actually -- right up until Jerry Seigel of 10audio said that it was a no-go. Apparently, they're great when they stay in Class A -- fantastic even -- but with a power hungry speaker like a Maggie, the Pass design slips right out of Class A into a not terribly musical AB.

 

As for an integrated, well. I guess it depends. Perhaps the Simaudio 700i, but that's crazy money for an integrated. Ok, so all of this is crazy money, but there you go. Anyway, I'd want the option of a tape out (for my separate Stax head amp) and a line out too (flexibility for subwoofers) and the 700i has all that, and 350wpc into 4ohms.

 

[catastrofe]

Since you've got the W4S pre on your list, I would also suggest their amps in lieu of Bel Canto (just from a pricing perspective) and/or their integrated.

 

I ran a Pass X-250 prior to my current W4S. . .I have no regrets.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I've heard that their amps still trail the Mark 2 versions of Bel Canto. Not saying that they won't leap frog with the next gen, of course, but those aren't out yet. I asked EJ when their "Reference" line is likely to hit the store, but he indicated that the release is still several months out. Interestingly, the price will be more in line with the "normal" discounted Bel Canto price and will include two parallel output stages, one of which will be en-tube-enated. The STP SE, he also mentioned, will not be receiving this tube-treatment as they are pretty happy with it's sound.

 

[Elprior]

Cool,

 

looks like a good option, if you can wait

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I have some concerns about Class-D amps generally -- more about their sound, as they do seem to have a family signature that isn't to everyone's taste. This is second hand as I've never had the opportunity to compare my Class A/Class AB amps to a Class D, so who knows.

 

As for the Maggies, everyone seems to say they "need current", but that tube amps don't have enough power to run them well. To me, that's kind of like saying "tube amps should be great since they typically over deliver on current, but tube amps won't work because they don't have enough power." A bit contradictory since a high-wattage tube amp should be just the ticket, then. The question is "how much" is "enough".

 

Speaking of which, I talked to Albert at Manley Labs -- he says he has customers running 1.6s off a Manley Stingray; the 100wpc Snapper will work just great and the Neo-Classic 250 (125wpc in triode/250 in UL) will be off the chart wonderful. But then, I would hardly expect him to say different now would I?

 

[audiozorro]

A 100w tube amp is equivalent to a 300-400w solid state amp. Isn't that common knowledge. Here's just one example and I doubt I could find anything to the contrary.

 

http://musicouch.com/instruments/tube-vs-solid-state-amps/

 

Yes the current trend of single ended tube amps typically less than 5-20w do not have the power to run Maggies. And unfortunately nowadays 100w+ tube amps are expensive unless you buy used and install mods/upgrades as necessary. I only wish I could afford new the top of the line CJ amp, the LP275M for $25K.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

About the whole 100w = 400w thing, at least to some degree. I hope its true (enough) though, because I think the Snapper would be very interesting. But I guess what I'm hoping is that 100w will be enough, whether its a tube system or not. More importantly am I doing myself a disservice by not getting a beefier amp?

 

Other options:

 

6:

Pre: Wyred4Sound STP SE

Amp: Modwright KWA150 (or KWA100)

Phono: Graham Slee

 

7:

Pre: Manley Neo 300b RC

Amp: Manley Snapper

Phono: Graham Slee

 

[audiozorro]

I would want to drive the 1.7 Maggies with at least a 100w tube amp or a 500w solid state amp. Of course some Maggie users are biamping or triamping their speakers. You should probably also post your questions on the Planar Speaker Asylum at Audio Asylum. If possible you should be working with your local Maggie dealer or hopefully you can contact some audiophiles in your area that use Maggies.

 

[kana813]

Bryston:

 

BP26MC

MPS-2

4BSST2

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Is a dangerous thing. So, it seems that upon exhausting (as opposed to exhaustive, which would imply success and some definite result) research, I've learned a few things.

 

One, as audiophiles, we generally have no idea WTF we're talking about.

 

Two, as audiophiles, we really love to repeat random, speculative anecdotes as incontrovertible fact.

 

Three, I'm no longer convinced that a Magnepan is going to give me what I want. Maybe.

 

What do I want? Tubes. Why? Who cares, I just do. But not just any tubes. I fascinated by low-power tubes and I'm really interested in SETs. Not helpful. SETs are not a great match for Maggies. Or for much of anything, actually. LOL.

 

What is a great match for Maggies? According to the received wisdom, you want significantly over 200 watts to "drive them well". 400wpc would be a good starting point. Of course, pricing at this point is far outstripping the speaker value .... (oh, and solid state would, of course, be best of all). If you fail to power your Maggies adequately, you'll burn up the speaker. Unquestionably. Oh, and it'll sound like crap while you're hurting them because under powering them will lead to over driving your amps into continuous clipping which will lead to overheating the ribbons and that (after some unknown period of time) will ruin the speakers. That said, Magnepan themselves actually demo their in-lobby system with a 35wpc amp. They're doing it wrong, it seems -- go figure. Something tells me that this over-powering-is-required is only true if you're shooting for SPLs in the mid-90's or higher, but then, perhaps I'm just a grumpy old man to suggest that that might be a bit ... loud. But what do I know? There's lots of evidence to support all this and more the fools' me for doubting. ;-)

 

As I can't buy two systems (or can I ... hmmm), and the Magnepan 1.7 cannot be bi-amped, I need to choose. And I think I might have to pursue my current interest over my long-time fascination with the Maggie. Doesn't help that I have come to believe that the 3.6 is probably a better "fit" for me, and that its likely to be rev'd (3.7) within the year (this via an unreliable, scurrilous rumor from some random and unidentified dealer). Makes me uncomfortable.

 

What to do, what to do ....

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Scot - Oh the dilemma :~) My colleagues and I often talk about needing two systems. The more you think about your options the more it will drive you nuts.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

That's it! A justification! I'll get BOTH! Woohoo!

 

Err ...

 

Hmm. If I ... and then ... no, I could just ... hmm.

 

You know, that might just work.

 

Ooooh. I'm so excited! Again!

 

[barrows]

Go ahead, get the 1.7s now, you know that you want them. They are such a great deal, that if you have to sell them at some point you should be able to get good money for them (plus, it might be nice to have them around for a second system at some point).

I would think that any good SS amp capable of 200 watts into 8 ohms, and 400 watts into 4 ohms could drive them fine. I even think something like Hypex amps (class D) with a tube/hybrid preamp might be a great combo for the Maggies.

Of course, if you really need to go the SET route you need super efficient speakers; SET amps will really limit your speaker choices...

 

[audiozorro]

If not you should audition the entire Maggie product line at you local dealer. I suggest The Gifted Listener at

 

http://www.giftedlistener.com/

 

Your listening room dimensions should dictate whether the 1.6/1.7 or 3.6 are a better fit for you. Once you get them in your house you need to audition different amps. I think you have recommendations for a Bryston solid state amp and another for a Rogue Audio tube amp. You are also within driving distance to Conrad Johnson, which is one of the tube amps you originally mentioned. You could also buy a used Conrad Johnson tube amp on Audiogon and have it upgraded by Bill Thalmann at Music Technology, also in your area.

 

http://musictechnology.com/highperformancehomeaudio.aspx

 

A year from now I would also recommended that you consider having your Maggies modded by Peter Gunn.

 

http://www.indiespinzone.com/magnestand.html

 

I sincerely believe that with a killer tube amp modified by Bill Thalmann and upgraded Maggies modified by Peter Gunn, you won't hear better music from any stock alternatives that you could buy.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Wow those mods are beautiful.