Sprout 100 ? NAD D 3020 ? Vidar ? Stellar S300

[botrytis]

Don't forget Parasound Halo Integrated. It has a DAC, Phono pre, and a remote. It is in the same ballpark as the others, not the Sprout, which will be around 700 USD. 

 

Don't listen to GTUB. There are some excellent class D amps out there.

[RMMN]

39 minutes ago, Sunflower_sutra said:

Hi RMMN,

 

Been a long time lurker of this forum but just signed up to give you some advice. I'll run through your choices quickly and then give you some general advice at the bottom.

 

Sprout 100 ? Personally would stay away from this.

 

NAD D 3020 ? It's fun but underpowered I got bored of it quickly just powering 50w speakers. 

 

Vidar ? This is a power amp don't underestimate the importance of the preamp

 

Stellar S300? The same as the vidar. If you don't have a decent preamp your not going to get the most out of these. The volume control surspingly has a big impact on the quality of sound. 

 

Anyhow welcome to the hobby! My general advice would be to consider where you are going to go with this equipment in the future if this is just the start for you i.e upgrade paths, you would hit dead ends very quickly with the first two amps. My other bit of advice is don't bother with a amp that has a inbuilt DAC in it. What's the point? Your only going to want to upgrade the dac in a year so your going to then end up with a separate dac which is wasteful. Stick to a good quality amp that doesn't waste itself with fancy add-ons. Don't be afraid of the used market, also consider 0% finance as can make things easier.

 

Also this may sound very stupid but maybe save up till you've got to the point where your like this is crazy money to spend, then get something. as you'll be in love with that setup for years because you know you wouldn't be able to afford anything more or better. I am saying that as upgradeitis is a itchy pain in the arse and buyers remorse is even worse. So possible solution till you save up more is too buy really good headphones and a headphone amp/dac which could keep you happy for a while and be cheaper plus if you look after headphones they will probably last you longer then a budget 2.0 stereo. 

Hi @Sunflower_sutra,  Thank you so much for making the effort to sign up so that you could help me choose. That’s really kind of you!

 

To summarize your guidance:

 

1. Go modular: I should stay clear from the 50 W all integrated amps because they’re not modular thus not upgradable -  That makes sense: So no Sprout nor 3020.

 

2. Get a good pre-amp - The Freya has been suggested. (Balanced, tubes).

 

3. Go big or go home:  You get what you pay for. Save until you can afford something really enjoy.    People that buy what they can afford end up rebuying what they needed In the first place, which makes buying cheap very expensive and frustrating. In the meantime listen in the car or with a headphone amp + good headphone set.  - I’ve owned the Grado’s sr80 in the past, they were good but overly bright, and uncomfortable after a while.  Any recommendations? I learned about Japanese electrostatic headphones that cost $3000  but I don’t have the budget for that. The Grados where $100,  and I liked them better than my Bose noise canceling headphones I used to have.

 

 The advise you provided is excellent! Thank you! 

[RMMN]

12 hours ago, psjug said:

 

Don't be afraid to go with used gear.

 

@psjug where would you recommend I look for used gear?

[psjug]

1 minute ago, RMMN said:

@psjug where would you recommend I look for used gear?

Anywhere and everywhere really.  Superphonica of course! Dealers, Ebay, craigslist, audio mart, yard sales, pawn shops.  Or maybe a friend wants to upgrade and will sell you something you like.

[BigAlMc]

55 minutes ago, RMMN said:

Hi Alan! Thank you for the feedback on the PS audio Class A/D amplifier. It’s  hard to find reviews of this gear so that’s great to hear you like it !  I hear a lot I hate about class D. That’s reassuring, as I am leaning towards getting the S300.

 

I don't pay attention to those who bang on about Class D. PS Audio are a class act and really look after their customers. 

 

Read the reviews on the M700s and S300. Tube-like is a reccurring comment. The consensus is largely that they knocked it out the park with these and they offer SQ well above their price point. 

 

But plenty other good recommendations on this thread too. 

 

Happy hunting and let us know how you get on. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[Nordkapp]

34 minutes ago, RMMN said:

@psjug where would you recommend I look for used gear?

Audiogon. 

[psjug]

Another thing... if you plan to mainly stream through tidal, you might look at a Bluesound Node, or Sonos Connect, or similar.  So nice and easy.  The internal DACs on these are good enough for me, but you can also use them with an external DAC, and you can also play your personal library through your home network as well as stream a variety of services.  

[jcn3]

35 minutes ago, psjug said:

Another thing... if you plan to mainly stream through tidal, you might look at a Bluesound Node, or Sonos Connect, or similar.  So nice and easy.  The internal DACs on these are good enough for me, but you can also use them with an external DAC, and you can also play your personal library through your home network as well as stream a variety of services.  

 

i'd do a bluesound node 2 over the sonos connect -- sonos has more flexibility, but bluesound has more sonic upside.

 

based on that you'd have a great setup with the creek evo 50a and a bluesound node2 -- combo would be about $1700 and could drive the elacs easily.  the ruby 2 dac is about $600 more.

 

if you're going to use the digital out of the bluesound (note that you wouldn't get the full unfold if not using the analog outs), then i would go with the parasound halo integrated -- great piece and is something you could live with for a long time.  package price w/bluesound does jump to $3000 though.

[psjug]

35 minutes ago, jcn3 said:

 

based on that you'd have a great setup with the creek evo 50a and a bluesound node2 -- combo would be about $1700 and could drive the elacs easily.  the ruby 2 dac is about $600 more.

 

You could do it gradually.  For now buy bluesound and speakers, and also an older used amp.  Then add/replace dac and amp over time.

[Ralf11]

re: a purported need to save up first... he said "My budget for electronics is: $2300"

 

so I think he is fine

 

also, modularity is only needed if you plan to upgrade piece by piece in the near future - there is something to be said for a single unit like the Creek (less clutter, aesthetics, etc.)

 

Parasound is also highly regarded (John Curl)

 

but really... get the best masterings of CD quality or better material; and do room treatments - those 2 things make big differences in SQ

[GUTB]

7 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

I don't pay attention to those who bang on about Class D. PS Audio are a class act and really look after their customers. 

 

Read the reviews on the M700s and S300. Tube-like is a reccurring comment. The consensus is largely that they knocked it out the park with these and they offer SQ well above their price point. 

 

But plenty other good recommendations on this thread too. 

 

Happy hunting and let us know how you get on. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

Class D sucks.

[Nordkapp]

11 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

re: a purported need to save up first... he said "My budget for electronics is: $2300"

 

so I think he is fine

 

also, modularity is only needed if you plan to upgrade piece by piece in the near future - there is something to be said for a single unit like the Creek (less clutter, aesthetics, etc.)

 

Parasound is also highly regarded (John Curl)

 

but really... get the best masterings of CD quality or better material; and do room treatments - those 2 things make big differences in SQ

This is sound advice. 

[BigAlMc]

33 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Class D sucks.

 

Like I said, I don't pay attention. 

 

I'll elaborate tho. 

 

I trust my ears. My M700s sound great. 

 

[GUTB]

17 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Like I said, I don't pay attention. 

 

I'll elaborate tho. 

 

I trust my ears. My M700s sound great. 

 

 

What’s your frame of reference? What other class a or a/b amps have you listened to?

[newworld]

On 4/19/2018 at 2:36 PM, RMMN said:

Hello,

 

I would like to become an audiophile as a new hobby. I don’t know that much about amplifiers and speakers at the audiophile level. May humbly ask the more experienced  members of the forum for their opinion and recommendations?

 

SETUP:

I will be running with the Elac Uni-fi UF5 speakers. As a start, I’ll be your playing from my iPhone from Apple Music to Airport Express:output 3.5 mm Jack or mini tosslink.

 

AMP:

I need help choosing an amp:

 

Sprout 100 ?

New Version to come out in May.  I won’t be using vinyl.

 

NAD D 3020 ?

 

Vidar ?

Looking at the specs/price this is impressive.

 

Stellar S300?

 PS audio claims this is very good. Class A —> Class D.

 

Any experience/recommendations you can share with me will help.

Thank you.

If it's your first time, I would strongly suggest buying used, as you will almost invariably want to upgrade right away. You don't need the latest at their highest prices. The Elac's are actually not that easy to drive. I would do away with the amps you listed and go for the best quality and amount of power. If you can stretch, a used Hegel would be perfect with its plethora of digital inputs. Cambridge CXA60 is really good as well. NAD C368 I auditioned was a huge disappointment.

 

Keep an open mind, and enjoy the process. Find joy in fitting your system into your living space. Don't put it on a pedestal. It's just electronic equipment.

[Sunflower_sutra]

14 hours ago, RMMN said:

Hi @Sunflower_sutra,  Thank you so much for making the effort to sign up so that you could help me choose. That’s really kind of you!

 

To summarize your guidance:

 

1. Go modular: I should stay clear from the 50 W all integrated amps because they’re not modular thus not upgradable -  That makes sense: So no Sprout nor 3020.

 

2. Get a good pre-amp - The Freya has been suggested. (Balanced, tubes).

 

3. Go big or go home:  You get what you pay for. Save until you can afford something really enjoy.    People that buy what they can afford end up rebuying what they needed In the first place, which makes buying cheap very expensive and frustrating. In the meantime listen in the car or with a headphone amp + good headphone set.  - I’ve owned the Grado’s sr80 in the past, they were good but overly bright, and uncomfortable after a while.  Any recommendations? I learned about Japanese electrostatic headphones that cost $3000  but I don’t have the budget for that. The Grados where $100,  and I liked them better than my Bose noise canceling headphones I used to have.

 

 The advise you provided is excellent! Thank you! 

Yep bang on, you got it. 

 

Saying all this I have enjoyed the journey of trying different gear I think I'm reaching my end point soon *sniggers* dac and speaker upgrades are possible on the horizon but the rest I'm happy with. Also I grew up around audiophiles who are now getting on a bit ( near 70s) and nearly all of them have downsized from big components to smaller more functional lifestyle products. Saying that there systems now sound pretty crappy to me  nothing like what they where like when they where in their prime but they all seem happier and they now appear more just into the music, so who knows? 

 

But from my experience I could have saved a bit of money by being more focused on what I wanted financially. 

 

With headphones I would probably get a pair of sennishers 660 or the massdrop ones but if you do want to splash out a pair of focal.

 

I'm not sure about headphone amps but maybe a good start into schiit gear to see if you like their sound but a jouteniheim with a multibit dac. Or you could go consider the mytek Brooklyn (easier to find used) or the plus. So you've got a great dac that can be upgraded with better power supplies, plus a good headphone and okay phono stage and preamp. Imagine that might last a few more years then some other components 

 

Also for used gear in the u.k, I use hi-fi shark it's a search engine for all the audio used gear websites. good luck hunting!

 

Lastly another tip watch videos of people using the gear. Makes you consider what it would be like to use in real life. As for a while wanted the schiit Freya but the unpractical warm up time and noise of the volume pot made me realise it wasn't for me

[MarkS]

If you want an all in one, you could also consider the Job INT (darn good class AB integrated amp with built in 24/192 capable dac). It’s a superb value at $1700. 

 

Alternatively, buy a really good used integrated without a dac and a chord mojo to tide you over until you can get a better dac or perhaps a Mytec Liberty (I haven’t heard the Liberty yet). 

 

DACs change often, so all in ones might not provide maximum value. 

 

If you want to go class D (I do not share the view that it is always awful) the Nuprime IDA-8 served me well at $1000 in my office system for a while with efficient speakers. It cannot drive inefficient speakers  (I switched to inefficient ones in my office system). 

[MarkS]

3 hours ago, newworld said:

If it's your first time, I would strongly suggest buying used, as you will almost invariably want to upgrade right away. You don't need the latest at their highest prices. The Elac's are actually not that easy to drive. I would do away with the amps you listed and go for the best quality and amount of power. If you can stretch, a used Hegel would be perfect with its plethora of digital inputs. Cambridge CXA60 is really good as well. NAD C368 I auditioned was a huge disappointment.

 

Keep an open mind, and enjoy the process. Find joy in fitting your system into your living space. Don't put it on a pedestal. It's just electronic equipment.

 

 

Used Hagel also a great idea. 

[Indydan]

Welcome RMMN!

 

If you're looking for a budget priced system that sounds really nice, I suggest the NAD 316BEE integrated amplifier and Wharfedale Diamond 220 book shelf speakers. I bought this combo for my mother's system and it really rocks! It sounds much better than it should for the price. 

[psjug]

6 hours ago, Indydan said:

Welcome RMMN!

 

If you're looking for a budget priced system that sounds really nice, I suggest the NAD 316BEE integrated amplifier and Wharfedale Diamond 220 book shelf speakers. I bought this combo for my mother's system and it really rocks! It sounds much better than it should for the price. 

In the same general price range as some of the wharfedales, you might look at the Usher S520.  I haven't heard these, but I have Usher V601 that sound fantastic for the price.  If you can find V601 used I would grab them, but S520 are always available on audio mart for cheap.

For my tiny room I have my eye on Salk WOW1 to use with a subwoofer.  If you want nice looking cabinets on a budget it would be hard to beat Salk.

[firedog]

Hegel make very good all in one integrated amps/dacs

You might also take a look at Nuprime Audio - they have some very good integrated amps/dacs for reasonable prices ( 2 models under $1000).

Emotiva also make amps and DACs that are relatively inexpensive but good. 

 

 

[RMMN]

15 hours ago, newworld said:

Cambridge CXA60 is really goo

 

@newworld  

Hi Newworld, Thank you for sharing your experience with me. I appreciate very much!

 

Wow, I’m discovering the choices and options in Hi-Fi are more numerous that I had ever imagined. They say in sales give people 4 choices, otherwise they get confused and don’t buy (I used to do photography at a professional level, and it was easy: only two choices: Canon or Nikon, and they are as good as the other).

 

The Cambridge Audio CXA60 and CXA80 look nice and fit in my budget. 

 

PS Audio claims that the lesser version Elac UB6 speaker combined with the Sprout sound fantastic for the price. What makes the Elac’s are hard to drive? 

[GUTB]

19 minutes ago, RMMN said:

 

@newworld  

Hi Newworld, Thank you for sharing your experience with me. I appreciate very much!

 

Wow, I’m discovering the choices and options in Hi-Fi are more numerous that I had ever imagined. They say in sales give people 4 choices, otherwise they get confused and don’t buy (I used to do photography at a professional level, and it was easy: only two choices: Canon or Nikon, and they are as good as the other).

 

The Cambridge Audio CXA60 and CXA80 look nice and fit in my budget. 

 

PS Audio claims that the lesser version Elac UB6 speaker combined with the Sprout sound fantastic for the price. What makes the Elac’s are hard to drive? 

 

I just deleted a recommendation for expanding your budget and avoiding consumer grade products — you won’t listen so it’s just wasted screenspace.

 

Two factors determine a speaker’s difficulty to drive: sensitivity and impedance / phase curve. Sensitivity is listed in the specs, curves come from technical measurements done as part of reviews (Stereophile is the reference source for most common speakers) and sometimes offered by the speaker manufacturers. The higher the sensitivity the less power they need, the flatter the curve the better.

[MarkS]

 I am intrigued.

 

How do you know he won’t listen to your recommendations?  Plus, I would be interested and, perhaps, others would too. 

 

Also, while I see your point on some of the recommendations, do you consider Hagel, Job, Emotiva, and PS Audio to be “consumer grade products?”

[mwb]

On 4/20/2018 at 6:01 AM, RMMN said:

1. Go modular: I should stay clear from the 50 W all integrated amps because they’re not modular thus not upgradable -  That makes sense: So no Sprout nor 3020.

 

2. Get a good pre-amp - The Freya has been suggested. (Balanced, tubes).

 

Totally agree that a separate DAC is desirable, but you do not need a separate amp and pre-amp (separates).  There are plenty of integrated amps out there without a DAC that are just fine.