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54 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Again, only makes sense if you don't make sweeping statements like

 

Naw....


I said "naysaying EEs"  the word naysaying being key. There are some EEs here for sure who are also audiophiles, and corroborate their listening investigations with measurements, as well as vice versa. But again, - we are dealing with super complex combinations of A/C power, in listening rooms, with different combinations of playback equipment, - no two systems are the same: so comments about the efficacy of (for example) the speaker cables in this thread, - are nearly valueless out of context.

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There are differing views though on this site, and in the main the two camps exist happily side by side, just occasionally sparing on the odd thread, that's what gives the forum life, otherwise it would become stale.

I believe threads like this one started out are good for all, as stated before its good to laugh at oneself, and this thread was doing that with a few inane comments about what are rather far out cables in anyone's book. 

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28 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

But again, - we are dealing with super complex combinations of A/C power, in listening rooms, with different combinations of playback equipment, - no two systems are the same: so comments about the efficacy of (for example) the speaker cables in this thread, - are nearly valueless out of context.

 

Are you sure these are super complex? There are much more complex systems out there, some, by the way, Marce is working on, that dwarf the complexity of inhome audio equipment. It’s sheer hubris  or ignorance to think that audiophile equipment is really that complex.

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21 minutes ago, marce said:

There are differing views though on this site, and in the main the two camps exist happily side by side, just occasionally sparing on the odd thread, that's what gives the forum life, otherwise it would become stale.

I believe threads like this one started out are good for all, as stated before its good to laugh at oneself, and this thread was doing that with a few inane comments about what are rather far out cables in anyone's book. 

OK... fair enough. I apologize if I've been too serious & too sensitive. Perhaps my perception, - but I would contend that there are folks who's "jokes" are meant not as jokes but meanspirited degradation of something that they know nothing about, and then it becomes good sport to "pile on" to the straw men. It's almost like it's a given that high-end audio manufacturers are these wealthy oligarchs with 9 houses, selling products that don't work, with an insane markup. But upon a real analysis and research, - much of this falls away.

 

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1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Are you sure these are super complex? There are much more complex systems out there, some, by the way, Marce is working on, that dwarf the complexity of inhome audio equipment. It’s sheer hubris  or ignorance to think that audiophile equipment is really that complex.

not specific audiophile equipment but all the components, - including room, A/C power, cabling, etc. What I meant was not (an amplifier for example) but the different possible combinations of things that can affect the final sound.

 

" It’s sheer hubris  or ignorance to think that audiophile equipment"

I think that it's grossly greater ignorance & hubris to conduct a cursory measurement of a cable, and then deduce it's efficacy in any complete system's final sound....

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1 hour ago, marce said:

as stated before its good to laugh at oneself, and this thread was doing that with a few inane comments about what are rather far out cables in anyone's book. 

Exactly @Albrecht. Just having some fun goofing on these a giant wires. No need to go and get swept up in all this emotion. Clearly a sound investment in wires is usually worth it, but even you, I am guessing being a man of intellect and wisdom, must surely acknowledge the insane design and price of such cables...

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

And who is guilty of doing such cursory measurements?

 

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine, - back thread.... 

I can see why that would be important to you, as from your posts, I gather that you're not interested in enhancing the listening experience, the equipment that does so, or maybe even enjoying listening to music at all.....

i hope that someday, - you'll have some really good, and fun, listening experience that changes your position.

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8 minutes ago, Nordkapp said:

Exactly @Albrecht. Just having some goofing on these a giant wires. No need go and get swept up in all this emotion. Clearly a sound investment in wires is usually worth it, but even you, I am guessing being a man of intellect and wisdom, must surely acknowledge the insane design and price of such cables...

Absolutely.... 

 

"some" cables yes. But I have two things about it. I easily recognize that because I can't afford something, - doesn't mean that it doesn't "sound good." And, - very often, - even if i think that the price is super high, - it doesn't take much research to understand why. For example, - the purist, single crystal silver that's cryo treated may not make the system sound "better" but the cost of the rare materials....and if it is built in Europe and shipped to USA, and dealer markup... etc... etc.....

 

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2 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine, - back thread.... 

I can see why that would be important to you, as from your posts, I gather that you're not interested in enhancing the listening experience, the equipment that does so, or maybe even enjoying listening to music at all.....

i hope that someday, - you'll have some really good, and fun, listening experience that changes your position.

 

Interesting but totally wrong conclusion. I spend at least a couple of dedicated hours a day listening to music or playing the piano. And I've been perfecting my audio systems for about 30 years now, so yes, I also enjoy the upgrade and the DIY process.

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27 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

While this might come as a surprise to some of my harshest critics, there is merit in the idea that making assumptions is antithetical to meaningful, substantive discourse.

 

Personally, I don't think there's technological value in $10,000 Ethernet cables (for example), but to extrapolate that the purveyors of those cables are obscenely wealthy is at least misguided.  Experience online and in meatspace has taught me that people jump into audiophilia for lots of different reasons.  For me, audio gear is like any other appliance in the house (or on road, like a smartphone or DAP).  I've never had a relationship with my toaster oven, but I'm coming around to the idea of not looking down on those who (as GUTB says) are "emotional" about audio.  But the reverse is true as well.  Just because I don't have a relationship with a DAC, amp, or cables, doesn't mean I'm any less of an audiophile than anyone else.  And in my book, anyone who cares about sound quality is an audiophile.  Oh, and in case I wasn't clear, the amount of money someone spends has no bearing whatsoever on their commitment (or lack of it) to audiophilia.

 

I see @christopher3393 has invoked Diana Krall above.  While I find her work rather banal, she's infinitely more interesting than this tired, "audiophilia is decadence" trope.  Perhaps it is decadence, but this is not the appropriate venue for such a topic.  Believe it or not, there is a forum for that.

I can't afford $10K ethernet cables. Even if they would be better than the fiber that I'm running, - which is cheaper than even lower priced "audiophile" ethernet CAT6 or 7 wire, - (anyway even they would be better), it would be way out of context with the rest of my system.

Most of us have cars, (stereo there), smartphones, etc. garage-bedroom systems. My point is that those experiences with those different performance level systems, vary. When people pile up these experiences, and they encounter equipment that they find really improves the experience of listening to their favorite music, - they feel like they get a deeper connection to the music, and enjoy it more. So they ALSO get an appreciation for the gear. AvanteGaarde horns are wrong for me, - but I really had a deeper appreciation for an AvanteGaarde, Viva amp, Meitner based system when hearing Aaron Copeland's "Fanfare for the Common Man." I appreciated BOTH the gear and the music. I still like "Fanfare for the Common Man" on my iphone, - but not as much as I did with those AvanteGaardes! My toaster does an adequate job of cooking up my English biscuits, - but that experience, - obviously, - is entirely different, - (of course), - so much less multi-faceted.

Prices paid for systems, (you are so right), vary as the day is long. Some people are given systems. Some people get dealer pricing. Some people get hand-me-downs.....etc. Personally, - I was lucky on a couple of fronts anyways... thanks for your post here....

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3 hours ago, marce said:

As I have said though many times cables do have an effect on signals travelling down them, it is measurable... the debate is whether it is audible, if it is something is wrong.

Well not all cables are good cables (especially at both ends of the cost scale) and not all output or input stages are of good design.  So it's more than possible that there are audible differences, but all good cables will sound the same.

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6 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

Simple George. It's called more money than brains.

I'd like to say that there is more to it than that, but I guess you're right. But that doesn't explain why we get the snake-oil products and videophiles, computerphiles and car-crazy's do not. I've been to SEMA Las Vegas before and yeah, they're lots of automobile after-market products (SEMA is at least as big as CES and a lot bigger than COMDEX) but none of it is on the order of Green Pens, cables the size of a 2-year old's leg and cost as much as a small car, and other products of dubious practical application or worth... 

George

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6 hours ago, Albrecht said:

 

Of course what you are saying is completely untrue. Can you give some specific examples of cables that are "useless?" In most all cases, - speakers are not wireless, and even if there are wireless speaker systems, - there is still a cable that's needed from the wireless receiver. So those cables do have a "use."

Can you also give some specific examples of "inflated prices?" I would assume that you'd need to know the precise cost of the wire, and shielding, then of course the packaging that it's in, and accounting for the 40% dealer mark-up, deduce the percentage of mark-up based on the retail price vs the cost to build.

""They were connected to the speakers with cables very much like those in the picture. I thought it was ridiculous then and I think it's ridiculous now.""

I would hazard that very few people who are interested in higher performing audio equipment could GAF about what your idiosyncratic opinions are about what is "ridiculous."

I don't wish to get into an argument here, but do you have any idea what you are talking about? Can you even read a sentence without applying your own peculiar bias to that sentences meaning? It certainly doesn't seem so. What the F  could a speaker cable that big do that an equal run of 12 gauge, 259 stand, oxygen-free, linear crystal copper can't? I hope you're not going to try to say that it has less resistance? Or that something impossible like "skin-effect" is occurring at audio frequencies? There is simply no reason (other than ostentation) for a speaker cable to be the size of an anaconda! That's what's ridiculous. That sized cable serves no useful purpose. NOBODY, Least of all me, is saying that cable, in and of itself is useless. We were discussing a particular cable (did you not see the photo? It's been posted in this thread enough!) and ITS size is what is useless! 

Learn to read and follow a discussion. You won't end up with egg all over your face so much!  

George

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6 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

most expensive speaker cables are useless, overpriced junk, whose manufacturers are snake-oil-bamboozlers

 

don't believe it??

 

do a DBT listening test

 

 

You bet! And I note here that you used the word "most", because there are clearly instances where speaker cables can make a difference between a speaker sounding it's best and not quite making the grade. I have always had this opinion, going back at least 30 years. Read my review, in Stereophile, of the Apogee Duetta II ribbon Speaker.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/apogee-duetta-ii-loudspeaker-george-graves

 

This was written in 1986, and even then I was starting to notice that speaker cables can sometimes make a difference. I put it down to the interface between amplifier and speaker, not the just the speaker itself, but I hadn't come to that conclusion then. 

George

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Slap double the Sales Tax on items where the manufacturers' claims can't be verified, with the additional tax being automatically diverted to Health and Education ?  Not just for electronics either !

An exception could be made for things like new Pharmaceutical drugs etc.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

You bet! And I note here that you used the word "most", because there are clearly instances where speaker cables can make a difference between a speaker sounding it's best and not quite making the grade. I have always had this opinion, going back at least 30 years. Read my review, in Stereophile, of the Apogee Duetta II ribbon Speaker.

The Apogee's may place the greatest demands on speaker cables and power amplifiers of all the good speakers ever made.

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