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Maybe it is down to three?

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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9 hours ago, marce said:

You accuse others of trolling yet your posts are:

empty of content.

Generally are insulting to other posters, science and EE's.

Don't engage in meaningful debate.

Display extreme closed mind to opposing ideas.

Pretty much displaying all the attributes of what you accuse myself and others of.

It's a bit like being in the playground:D calling each other inane names.

I am not initiating posts attacking audiophiles or high performance audio manufacturers. I am defending, - not initiating.

What is the endgame here? Does the OP (and you) think that HEAM will quit? Or that Audiophiles will suddenly sell all their gear and go buy consumer gear? With all the vitriol spat at audiophiles, on an audiophile website: it's not as though you want to protect audiophiles from wasting money. Why don't you go bite the head off computer manufacturers where the cost to manufacture vs retail price is so much worse than HEA?

 

""Generally are insulting to other posters, science and EE's.

Don't engage in meaningful debate.

Display extreme closed mind to opposing ideas.""

 

LOL, - what opposing ideas? bait and switch much?

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!WARNING VILE THREAD!

 

I give my most coveted "post of the day award" for exceptional wit or snark.

 

Sadly this is my first "VILE THREAD" award.   

In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law

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6 minutes ago, marce said:

You really do have a sad and misguided view on these things...

No vitriol is spat at audiophiles, what happens is some of the more esoteric beliefs in the hobby are rightly questioned and because we don't conform to your blinkered beliefs you spit your dummy out...

Being an audiophile myself (of the more objective side) what I would like to see is a move back to achieving real sound fidelity and despair at how things are these days with magic cables etc.

Computers are a bad example to pick, technology has got cheaper and cheaper and more importantly they don't try and sell magic add ons such as magic cables, grounding boxes etc.

Finally in regard to the silly cables this thread is about, has anyone thought about the stress such large cables will put on the connectors, plugs and any connections ...

 

"" You really do have a sad and misguided view on these things... ""

Pot meet Kettle. I have knowledge based on experience, which reflects the majority viewpoint. Unfortunately, - the same can not be said of your unreasonable attacking position....

 

""egard to the silly cables this thread is about, has anyone thought about the stress such large cables will put on the connectors, plugs and any connections ...""

You can call cables what you want from your ignorant viewpoint, - but whether or not that position is unreasonable is just your unfounded and vitriolic, assumption; outside reality.

The best that YOU can say about those cables is that you know nothing about them...... Even your "silly" (to quote you) assumption that they're too heavy for the connectors, is questionable without knowing how much the cables weigh, or what type of connectors are on the speakers, and how those connectors may be mounted/attached to the cabinets, - or the cabinet material.

""Being an audiophile myself (of the more objective side)"

Although it is possible, it is silly as the "objective" component of a subjective experience and knowledge is grossly mundane at best.

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10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Your 'majority' is a minuscule drop in the larger community that does not hold the same view. Your view belongs to a tiny minority that contradicts the real majority that includes most scientists, engineers (yes, EEs), and average folks who couldn't care less about magic cables or grounding sand boxes. So if you want to make it about a popularity contest, sorry, you lose.

 

What community are you talking about? The "audiophile" community is really small, for sure. But again, - you are on an audiophile website. The majority of people here audiophiles. The average system retails for $20,000. they/we value high performance audio. Certainly on an open forum like this, - there are also a loud minority who come here to attack those that value high performance audio gear. If you do not, or anti-audiophiles do not, or computer engineers, etc. there are several other anti-audiophile sites and blogs where they/you can encounter and interact with other like minded folks.

Anti-audiophiles here are the minority of another minority. If you don't value higher performing audio equipment, and don't want to improve your listening experience, - why are you here? What sort of underlying assumptions are you making about Avalon speakers or Meitner DACs? Or the people that value them?

""So if you want to make it about a popularity contest, sorry, you lose.""

What polls have you conducted?

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1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Community of all audio equipment users is much larger than CA, and contradicts the findings of your so called 'majority'.

 

I guess that I have to say it again, - another way perhaps?

 

""Community of all audio equipment users is much larger than CA,"

Not talking about that community. But this one, - which is the audiophile community.

 

CHECK

THE

NAME

OF THE

WEBSITE

 

""so called 'majority'.""

 

You don't have to stick the "so called" in there.

reposting, - as your post indicates that you haven't read it....

 

""there are also a loud minority who come here to attack those that value high performance audio gear. If you do not, or anti-audiophiles do not, or computer engineers, etc. there are several other anti-audiophile sites and blogs where they/you can encounter and interact with other like minded folks.

Anti-audiophiles here are the minority of another minority. If you don't value higher performing audio equipment, and don't want to improve your listening experience, - why are you here? What sort of underlying assumptions are you making about Avalon speakers or Meitner DACs? Or the people that value them?""

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

I guess that I have to say it again, - another way perhaps?

 

""Community of all audio equipment users is much larger than CA,"

Not talking about that community. But this one, - which is the audiophile community.

 

CHECK

THE

NAME

OF THE

WEBSITE

 

""so called 'majority'.""

 

You don't have to stick the "so called" in there.

reposting, - as your post indicates that you haven't read it....

 

""there are also a loud minority who come here to attack those that value high performance audio gear. If you do not, or anti-audiophiles do not, or computer engineers, etc. there are several other anti-audiophile sites and blogs where they/you can encounter and interact with other like minded folks.

Anti-audiophiles here are the minority of another minority. If you don't value higher performing audio equipment, and don't want to improve your listening experience, - why are you here? What sort of underlying assumptions are you making about Avalon speakers or Meitner DACs? Or the people that value them?""

 

 

 

If this CA community defines the 'audio truth' for the rest of the human race, then your point might make sense. To ignore the opinion of the larger community because you happen to belong to this one is living in a bubble.

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24 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

If this CA community defines the 'audio truth' for the rest of the human race, then your point might make sense. To ignore the opinion of the larger community because you happen to belong to this one is living in a bubble.

The subject is about audiophiles, and audiophile cables & equipment, - not the rest of the audio community. The audiophile community is DIFFERENT. (the CA community likely doesn't, & shouldn't GAF about consumer gear).

The audiophile community places different values on the music listening experience than does the consumer audio industry.

First, - there's no such thing as "audio truth." What does that even mean? Second, the CA community talks about higher performing audio equipment, and (via the definition of audiophile), is concerned about enhancing the experience of music recordings.

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2 hours ago, Albrecht said:

"" You really do have a sad and misguided view on these things... ""

Pot meet Kettle. I have knowledge based on experience, which reflects the majority viewpoint. Unfortunately, - the same can not be said of your unreasonable attacking position....

 

""egard to the silly cables this thread is about, has anyone thought about the stress such large cables will put on the connectors, plugs and any connections ...""

You can call cables what you want from your ignorant viewpoint, - but whether or not that position is unreasonable is just your unfounded and vitriolic, assumption; outside reality.

The best that YOU can say about those cables is that you know nothing about them...... Even your "silly" (to quote you) assumption that they're too heavy for the connectors, is questionable without knowing how much the cables weigh, or what type of connectors are on the speakers, and how those connectors may be mounted/attached to the cabinets, - or the cabinet material.

""Being an audiophile myself (of the more objective side)"

Although it is possible, it is silly as the "objective" component of a subjective experience and knowledge is grossly mundane at best.

You can have the last word.

As I have said though many times cables do have an effect on signals travelling down them, it is measurable... the debate is whether it is audible, if it is something is wrong.:D

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1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Similar cables are far older than that. I remember once going to a Martin -Logan dog-and-pony show at a local dealer some 15 years ago. They were showing off their then top-of-the-line speakers powering them with a pair of Classe mono block amplifiers each the size of one of those small office refrigerators. They were connected to the speakers with cables very much like those in the picture. I thought it was ridiculous then and I think it's ridiculous now.

 

Electronics technology is a big part of all of our lives, and I understand that most people don't know squat about it, and don't need to know anything about the technology to use the products. But I know of no other field other than audio where manufacturers take such blatant advantage of customer's ignorance to sell them useless products at inflated prices (Oh the car after market used to be a little like that. Remember 'Fire Injector' spark plugs?). I mean nobody sells TV cables as big as a baby's arm from the cable port in the wall to bring-in better signal. Nobody sells cable elevators for one's computer system or spikes to adhere to the bottom of one's desktop. So what is it about audio that stamps a big sign across our foreheads that says "Sucker!"? 

Of course what you are saying is completely untrue. Can you give some specific examples of cables that are "useless?" In most all cases, - speakers are not wireless, and even if there are wireless speaker systems, - there is still a cable that's needed from the wireless receiver. So those cables do have a "use."

Can you also give some specific examples of "inflated prices?" I would assume that you'd need to know the precise cost of the wire, and shielding, then of course the packaging that it's in, and accounting for the 40% dealer mark-up, deduce the percentage of mark-up based on the retail price vs the cost to build.

""They were connected to the speakers with cables very much like those in the picture. I thought it was ridiculous then and I think it's ridiculous now.""

I would hazard that very few people who are interested in higher performing audio equipment could GAF about what your idiosyncratic opinions are about what is "ridiculous."

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1 minute ago, marce said:

You can have the last word.

As I have said though many times cables do have an effect on signals travelling down them, it is measurable... the debate is whether it is audible, if it is something is wrong.:D

Hi,

I'm not interested in "having the last word." What I am interested in is defending a very reasonable position based on knowledge & experience....  I appreciate that you said, - ""As I have said though many times cables do have an effect on signals travelling down them, it is measurable... the debate is whether it is audible, if it is something is wrong.""

 

The debate is whether it is audible AND whether or not it improves the listening experience of the overall system.

Certainly $3000 Cardas Golden Reference speaker wire is NOT going to be used by anyone with a Sony Boombox that has speakers that can be removed and separated. (It is highly unlikely that there would be a difference between Cardas and Home Depot 12ga lamp cord).

Conversely, - no one is going to use Home Depot lamp cord on their $45,000 Avalon speakers, - assuming that they've made a good amplification choice,  - as the difference as to how both types of speaker cable affects the whole system are quite apparent.

 

(I am not saying that this is you) but when anti-audiophiles come on to this (audiophile) site and say that all speaker cables are useless, overpriced junk, whose manufacturers are snake-oil-bamboozlers, - this directly contradicts the vast majority of people here/audiophiles & their empirical knowledge, experiences, and investigations.  :D

 

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