christopher3393 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 This little broadside just popped up on Audiostream: https://www.audiostream.com/content/audio-without-numbers I'd love to see intelligent critical responses rather than angry venting or ridicule. Teresa 1 Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 It seems Audiostream is trying to come up with more and more imaginative ways to troll those who they apparently perceive as a threat. While it appears that you and Herb might share some affinity for "feeling" rather than "knowing", this looks to me like you're trolling this forum on ML's behalf. Link to comment
esldude Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 I didn't go past the first little bit of reading it. Classic straw man argument. I stopped at the point where he said objectivist trolls haven't heard the hurricane of Soundlab speakers. Guess what speakers I listen on? Soundlabs. I could go further and provide additional reasonable commentary like his different categories of experience and what it means. No need, its is one big straw man moan. I will add one more thing. The hurricane survivor has cogency of a sort. On the other hand if we wish to build a levee or take other steps to prevent people clinging to the roof tops, it is not those people who can help us accomplish that. With or without cats. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post GUTB Posted April 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 4, 2018 Eloquent and brutal analysis of non-audiophile objectivists’ belief system. Keith_W, Teresa, Albrecht and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment
Popular Post mav52 Posted April 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 4, 2018 Sounds like a bunch of grumpy old men, with nothing better to do than appear to make themselves superior to those on Audio forums, using the aged and overused " because they write for a audio website.", makes them superior. I find these articles like the one posted on Audiostream just another cry for help from the old guard. skikirkwood, esldude and Fluffytime 3 The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
beetlemania Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Broadside? Meh. Maybe against Hydrogen Audio thinking - of which there is overlap here at CA. But mostly just another volley in the long-running objectivist-subjectivist divide. I have little respect for Reichert as a reviewer but I found myself agreeing with most of what he wrote, nicely captured here: Quote I can hear them now, "All audio cables that measure the same sound the same." To which I always respond, "Just because you can't hear the difference—who says I can't?" Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
christopher3393 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 26 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: It seems Audiostream is trying to come up with more and more imaginative ways to troll those who they apparently perceive as a threat. While it appears that you and Herb might share some affinity for "feeling" rather than "knowing", this looks to me like you're trolling this forum on ML's behalf. Not trolling. I'm not sure what to make of this piece yet. My initial response is more critical than appreciative. The invitation at the end to "walk together" seems an odd conciliatory gesture at the end of a broadside. Again, first impulse, some arguments seem weak. Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted April 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 4, 2018 Perhaps the only way audiostream can get page views is to troll this site ??? Samuel T Cogley, esldude, Indydan and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted April 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 4, 2018 "Just because you can't hear the difference—who says my own confirmation bias isn't working?" crenca and ronkuper 2 Link to comment
Nordkapp Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Good read. Valid points made, as both sides usually do. "Can't we all just get along?". R. King. Link to comment
Popular Post semente Posted April 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 4, 2018 The Reich fellow saw a UFO. In my book that's up there. Up. There. crenca and NOMBEDES 1 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
Albrecht Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Samuel T Cogley said: It seems Audiostream is trying to come up with more and more imaginative ways to troll those who they apparently perceive as a threat. While it appears that you and Herb might share some affinity for "feeling" rather than "knowing", this looks to me like you're trolling this forum on ML's behalf. LOL, - I'd love to see your definition of "knowing." Talk about trolling,... anti-audiophiles who come on an Audiophile website and try to "sell" their speculative belief system in order to denigrate and change the minds of audiophiles.... Question, (and believe me, I have major criticisms of Audiostream), how can someone troll their own site? Link to comment
Albrecht Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 1 hour ago, christopher3393 said: This little broadside just popped up on Audiostream: https://www.audiostream.com/content/audio-without-numbers I'd love to see intelligent critical responses rather than angry venting or ridicule. "" Self-proclaimed audio objectivists, like those that troll audio forums, are not scientists, or audio professionals; they have not directly experienced the giant Sound Lab speakers or the acoustic-wind of a 15A/13A Western Electric horn system. They are pathologically self-centered people who watch the hurricane on TV and then later, tell the hurricane survivor that lost their cat, "That wasn't a hurricane—it was only a tropical storm." """ This is sooooooo true! WOW... look&listen 1 Link to comment
crenca Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 1 hour ago, christopher3393 said: Not trolling. I'm not sure what to make of this piece yet. My initial response is more critical than appreciative. The invitation at the end to "walk together" seems an odd conciliatory gesture at the end of a broadside. Again, first impulse, some arguments seem weak. Like someone said upstream, it's just more of the same of the objectivist/subjectivist divide. I find Herb's "poetic" thinking out of place, given what we know about even the subjectivist side of audio (the personal, "sounds like" aspect that is very real) to say nothing of all the rest around electronics, engineering, digital, repoduction/waveform, etc. etc. On the other hand is it not just people who tend to get writing/reviewing jobs? He (and the rest of the "old guard") have overplayed their hand/position/understanding and are fighting mad and fighting back now that there are other voices now (i.e. forums such as this one) giving another perspective... MikeyFresh 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post Archimago Posted April 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 4, 2018 1 hour ago, semente said: The Reich fellow saw a UFO. In my book that's up there. Up. There. LOL. I was reading until this point about the UFO experience and basically could not proceed word for word and skimmed the rest. I do love thinking and writing about audio because sound is such an ephemeral phenomenon that it can so easily divide audiophiles into "camps". Personally, the tool by which I like to adjudicate sound is with emotional and intellectual reason. This is at the heart of a previous article I wrote a year back - "On Being an Audiophile, Rationality, and Respectability ". Yeah... Plenty of straw men, inaccuracies, and lack of insight in that article IMO. For example: "Interestingly, objectivists like behavioral psychologists do not believe consciousness exists." Nonsense. I don't know any objectivist that denies consciousness exits! Who? Speaking for myself at least - consciousness is at the heart of my day job :-). "Their minds are not open to any forms of anecdotal evidence or unbiased collection of raw data." Again, what is this about? Other than Hydrogen Audio with their TOS, I don't think anyone here demands formal A/B testing be done. Informal anecdotal opinions are not necessarily automatically dismissed, but I think most would encourage the listener to go further using tools (whether ABX or other form of blind testing) to control for biases. This is simply reasonable especially when the opinion is one of "obvious" audible differences heard. "Dutifully, I remind these dismissers, that, by definition, an 'objectivist' is an experienced, unbiased and unprejudiced observer; and that every editor at Stereophile, Analog Planet, InnerFidelity, and AudioStream fits that description." Oy vey... Please think about how narcissistic, self-serving this comes across Mr. Reichert! Simply horrifying logic. The thing is that I would love to debate an article like this with these folks on AudioStream... But they banned me for basically expressing a philosophically different opinion years ago similar to statements above. I certainly do not think I came across as rude nor did I use any inappropriate language, just pointing out inconsistencies and questionable "faith based" commentary as I recall being promoted by Mr. Lavorgna. Indeed, "So why then can't objectivists and subjectivists respect each other?" Ultimately, this article comes across IMO as an example of the "old guard" trying to reinvigorate their faithful "base". Good. Keep trying boys... semente, Ajax, MikeyFresh and 1 other 2 2 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 45 minutes ago, Albrecht said: LOL, - I'd love to see your definition of "knowing." Talk about trolling,... anti-audiophiles who come on an Audiophile website and try to "sell" their speculative belief system in order to denigrate and change the minds of audiophiles.... Question, (and believe me, I have major criticisms of Audiostream), how can someone troll their own site? There's copious back and forth in the forum about "feeling" vs. "knowing" (notice the scare quotes). I encourage you to seek that out if you're genuinely curious. ML isn't trolling Audiostream, he's trolling all those mean objectivists that gave him sads. Link to comment
Brinkman Ship Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Wow, they must really be feeling the heat. The wicked hidings they took over MQA must have really stung. crenca 1 Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Brinkman Ship said: Wow, they must really be feeling the heat. The wicked hidings they took over MQA must have really stung. The validation that piece has given to the faithful there is palpable. Just read the comments section. Brinkman Ship 1 Link to comment
crenca Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 27 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: The validation that piece has given to the faithful there is palpable. Just read the comments section. That is all he has left as he has banned anyone who does not already agree with them. It is probably not an accident that Herb has published this piece at audio stream instead of stereophile because JA to his credit would allow an opposing viewpoint. Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Albrecht Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 34 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: There's copious back and forth in the forum about "feeling" vs. "knowing" (notice the scare quotes). I encourage you to seek that out if you're genuinely curious. ML isn't trolling Audiostream, he's trolling all those mean objectivists that gave him sads. "There's copious back and forth in the forum about "feeling" vs. "knowing" (notice the scare quotes)" It looks like I mis-interpreted your meaning there: sorry about that. ""ML isn't trolling Audiostream, he's trolling all those mean objectivists that gave him sads."" Got it, - I don't disagree that ML gets "triggered" pretty quickly and easily, and has a tendency to be a bit preachy. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, crenca said: That is all he has left as he has banned anyone who does not already agree with them. It is probably not an accident that Herb has published this piece at audio stream instead of stereophile because JA to his credit would allow an opposing viewpoint. audio fascism ?? Link to comment
Albrecht Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 1 minute ago, crenca said: That is all he has left as he has banned anyone who does not already agree with them. It is probably not an accident that Herb has published this piece at audio stream instead of stereophile because JA to his credit would allow an opposing viewpoint. I haven't seen any evidence that ML has banned people that for an opposing viewpoint. I have seen evidence that he's banned people for being rude & disrespectful. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 That article is an amazing condensation of ignorance. Leaving the strawman argument aside, he cannot get very far without making errors, for example, meteorologists are not scientists at all - they have an undergraduate degree (sometimes less) and then get certified by the American Meteorological Society then get a job (often on TV) where they give weather forecasts (on TV, it is just based on NWS forecasts with some fun graphics). He may be "cornfusing" that with Climatologists (who are scientists, with PhDs + a post-doc usually who study mechanisms causing climate, past records, effects, etc. Then there is the mis-description of science... he obviously does not know what an experiment is, and then makes a claim of equivalence that no scientist would make. The FDA "demand(s) illusionist parlor tricks like blind "testing"" of drugs and medical devices. I wonder how many drugs he is on? Link to comment
Ron Scubadiver Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Hurricanes? I lost my house to Hurricane Harvey flooding. It was quite a shock to come home and see furniture tossed everywhere, fridge at a 45 degree angle, audio gear and LP's ruined along with everything else in the house. Is there some reason why we have to listen at rock concert volume levels driven by super efficient speakers? Only if you want to. Link to comment
Nordkapp Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, Albrecht said: I haven't seen any evidence that ML has banned people that for an opposing viewpoint. I have seen evidence that he's banned people for being rude & disrespectful. ML is pompous. Gotta be one of the worst audio snobs going imo. Hate to say such things but he makes no apologies. Link to comment
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