EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[Superdad]

6 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

I agree with Alex that hardly anyone will be using a master clock.  But, I will be using one. 

 

And does the clock you use not have both 50 and 75 ohm outputs? 

[tboooe]

32 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Sorry Tommy, we can't do that.  

a) It goes completely against my business ethics to accept money in advance for a product that does not yet have production PCBs and cases in production with firm delivery dates;

Yes, I am totally aware and respect your company policy.  I was only messing around, though not really kidding about being out of money after Xmas....

[auricgoldfinger]

8 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Given that all the major 10MHz reference clocks on the market have both 50 and 75 ohm outputs, why does it matter which we choose for input?

 

I have an expensive Habst 50-ohm cable available for a switch.  I am not interested in buying a 75-ohm cable, which in my situation, would raise the cost of ownership of an EtherREGEN to the same level as the expensive switch you alluded to above.

[bobfa]

Man, this is getting way too fast folks.  

 

Lets let Alex do his thing. I am sure that he can adapt over time to market pressure and needs.  I know that I am one of the folks that will not be using external clocks.  My system is so complicated now that I do not want to think about how to have others run it. And if something goes wrong who can debug it?   Different apps, switching inputs on the DAC and the Amp; Whew.   

 

I am sure that some are invested in all three sides of the clock problem.    

 

Thanks, Alex for the updates.  Back to listening to music

 

[austinpop]

28 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Given that all the major 10MHz reference clocks on the market have both 50 and 75 ohm outputs, why does it matter which we choose for input?

 

Come on... TedAlex. This is not an attack. We're just asking for a reasonable option. There are constraints for customers too.

1. older Cybersahfts have only 50Ω outputs
2. SOtM OCX-10 impedances have to be selected at time of purchase
3. Ref 10 has 6x 75Ω and 2x 50Ω

For any number of reasons, including the cables they own, customers may want to select the impedance of the input on the EtherRegen they buy. The competition provides that option too: http://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/shop/snh-10g/

 

I know @JohnSwenson is more aware than laypeople that impedance matching involves BNC connectors as well as the internal and external cable, which is why we would trust you guys to do it right. Is an impedance switch such a bad idea? And it would save you from building and stocking 2 different versions.

 

If Cybershaft can implement an impedance switch, I'm sure John can too.

[Ralf11]

but he said the cost of a different pcb run made it not a reasonable option... (post 46 minutes agor w.r.t. yours)

 

that means either one or the other but not both - unless there is a lower cost way to do it ?

 

maybe a sub-board?

[R1200CL]

It seems the 50 Ohm option will please everyone so far ?

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Perhaps an impedance selector like this?

 

That seems weird since the switch won't change the BNC connectors' impedance.  I'll have to ask John about this.  

[Superdad]

17 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

It seems the 50 Ohm option will please everyone so far ?

 

Well we were going to settle on 50 ohm, but it seems we can't please everyone. 

[austinpop]

5 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Well we were going to settle on 50 ohm, but it seems we can't please everyone. 

 

I can live with either impedance, just pointing out one size does not fit all.

 

Don’t shoot the messenger!

[diecaster]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Frankly we went back and forth about even including the external clock option since we don't want to give the impression that use of one is required to obtain superior performance.

 

This external clock stuff is BS anyway so I am surprised that you decided to add a feature that hardly anyone would use. All it does is make the switch more expensive and make it look like you think external clocks actually matter on an Ethernet switch.

 

If anything, having the external clock option makes me LESS likely to buy the switch.

[Superdad]

3 minutes ago, diecaster said:

This external clock stuff is BS anyway so I am surprised that you decided to add a feature that hardly anyone would use. All it does is make the switch more expensive and make it look like you think external clocks actually matter on an Ethernet switch.

 

Who says pandering to our base is a bad thing?  This isn't politics. 

 

Besides, between the BNC connector, a switch, a transistor, a resistor, a small chip, an extra opening cut in the rear, and a few more lines of code to flash to enable selecting internal or external clock--it adds about $6 to our cost.

 

Frankly we are including it mostly so that those who are already using fancy clocks will try our switch--and then realize that the significant factors that make ours superior do not depend up an external clock.  The extra connector is a checklist item for them.

 

And hey, a reasonable number of people are reporting benefit to the clocking, so who are we--or YOU--to say? 

 

[Blake]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Sorry Tommy, we can't do that.  

a) It goes completely against my business ethics to accept money in advance for a product that does not yet have production PCBs and cases in production with firm delivery dates;

 

 

But Alex, this model worked out so well for Larry Ho/LH Labs (take money, deliver nothing)!   Think of all the stuff you could buy.

 

Unfortunately this model did not work so well for consumers.  I miss my $3,000.  That could have paid for 5 season ski passes   

 

[Superdad]

2 minutes ago, Blake said:

But Alex, this model worked out so well for Larry Ho/LH Labs (take money, deliver nothing)!

 

Oh god, the art of crowd-fleecing.  Don't get me started!  

[diecaster]

1 minute ago, Superdad said:

 

Who says pandering to our base is a bad thing?  This isn't politics. 

 

Besides, between the BNC connector, a switch, a transistor, a resistor, a small chip, an extra opening cut in the rear, and a few more lines of code to flash to enable selecting internal or external clock--it adds about $6 to our cost.

 

Frankly we are including it mostly so that those who are already using fancy clocks will try our switch--and then realize that the significant factors that make ours superior do not depend up an external clock.  The extra connector is a checklist item for them.

 

And hey, a reasonable number of people are reporting benefit to the clocking, so who are we--or YOU--to say? 

 

 

$6 in parts is what, $30 to $39 at retail? That's not chicken feed when 99% of the people buying the switch won't use it. Now, if you said you were including it for free and weren't blowing smoke I might have a different opinion.

 

This word clock stuff is stupid if you buy stuff with good clocks. My DAC, for example, ignores all external clocks on all interfaces. Has John done any testing yet that suggest word clocks provide any benefit at the DAC?

 

Reasonable people? I have yet to see anyone come up with a technical explanation of why word clocks are worthwhile for home audio. People believing what they hear sounds better is not compelling evidence.

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock

[BigAlMc]

32 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

This external clock stuff is BS anyway so I am surprised that you decided to add a feature that hardly anyone would use. All it does is make the switch more expensive and make it look like you think external clocks actually matter on an Ethernet switch.

 

If anything, having the external clock option makes me LESS likely to buy the switch.

 

Hi @Superdad,

 

Alex I'm not attacking but providing a different perspective and quoting Diecaster as my view is the polar opposite of his.

 

I have 3k invested in a sCLK-OCX10 which makes a great difference in my USB path.

 

It's 75 ohm so if your EtherRegen isn't able to support that then you've just solved a purchasing decision for me and SoTM are far more likely to get my money because sadly the Uptone switch no longer works for me.

 

I may well be an edge case but I'm also not alone.

 

Sorry if this is a headache for you but that's my perspective.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[k-man]

9 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Frankly we are including it mostly so that those who are already using fancy clocks will try our switch--and then realize that the significant factors that make ours superior do not depend up an external clock.  The extra connector is a checklist item for them.

 

And hey, a reasonable number of people are reporting benefit to the clocking, so who are we--or YOU--to say? 

SD,

As a ISORegen and LPS 1.1 user, I also reckon this EtheRegen will be stand up on its own, so I kinda question the necessity of this external clock input/output (whatever it is ?) even if it is for $6 - actually make that $6 x thousands sold.

 

I see enough Mutec ref 10 being in the second hand market to know that users aren't quite getting it optimised in their setup (this product is far from being a turkey). Yes, the threads tell it makes a hell of a difference, but for the numbers of external clock owners out there I am not so sure - Mutec, Antelope, Cybershaft, etc.

 

What about the idea if the initial release EtherRegen is sold without external clocking option, and later you can guage the number of requests for a model that does? An extra $100 for a specific 50 or 75 ohm build of their choice.

 

I just wonder how much time you spent on QA on something that was supposed to be so simple- the red IO switch for the ISORegen. With hindsight, could a ISORegen sans switch with a co-release of a cheaper Regen V2 been a viable and less problematic decision?

 

I didn't really want to post like I'm on the advisory board, just a humble and satisfied Uptone user who hardly makes posts nowadays.

 

 

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

8 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

It's 75 ohm so if your EtherRegen isn't able to support that then you've just solved a purchasing decision for me and SoTM are far more likely to get my money because sadly the Uptone switch no longer works for me.

 

You wont sleep before you have tried both options ?

[Superdad]

26 minutes ago, diecaster said:

$6 in parts is what, $30 to $39 at retail?

 

Nope.  UpTone's direct to consumer business model means that our retail prices are just 2-3 times total product parts costs.

 

9 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

I have 3k invested in a sCLK-OCX10 which makes a great difference in my USB path.

It's 75 ohm so if your EtherRegen isn't able to support that then you've just solved a purchasing decision for me and SoTM are far more likely to get my money because sadly the Uptone switch no longer works for me.

 

I get it Alan.  But what will you do if the EtherREGEN outperforms the SOtM switch even without feeding an external clock?  

 

Some folks are today getting really hung up on this clock issue.  But what I have trying to explain is that our piece is about way more than clocking.  Perhaps I reopened the thread too soon because we are not yet ready to explain all of what makes what we are doing unique (and for propriety reasons we will have to decide just how much to reveal even when we do).

 

6 minutes ago, k-man said:

I didn't really want to post like I'm on the advisory board, just a humble and satisfied Uptone user who hardly makes posts nowadays.

 

Your constructive input is always welcome.  

I'll just say that I've been in audio manufacturing long enough to state that customizations and changes are never efficient and lead to loss of profitability.  Which eventually leads to higher prices and slow down in delivery.

[BigAlMc]

46 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

This word clock stuff is stupid if you buy stuff with good clocks. My DAC, for example, ignores all external clocks on all interfaces. 

 

I don't want to go too far off topic but this thread is about a network switch with better clocking so I'm going to refute the above on three counts.

 

1. The clocking in the TX-USBultra made an immediate audible improvement. (Replacing the LPS-1 with the LPS-1.2 improved it again ?)

 

2. Adding the sCLK-OCX10 lifted it even further.

 

3. I've discussed this with Ted Smith and he didn't say the Directstream was immune to clocking upstream.

 

The Directstream is a great DAC but improvements upstream help it perform even better. Which is why we're on this thread with high hopes for what Alex and John might manage!

[BigAlMc]

5 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

I get it Alan.  But what will you do if the EtherREGEN outperforms the SOtM switch even without feeding an external clock?  

 

I'll buy two and happily sell the SoTM kit! ?

 

 

[k-man]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Your constructive input is always welcome.  

I'll just say that I've been in audio manufacturing long enough to state that customizations and changes are never efficient and lead to loss of profitability.  Which eventually leads to higher prices and slow down in delivery.

Thanks Superdad,

 

Paul Hynes SR7 comes my to mind in that aspect. Perhaps I was thinking more the iPhone Xs, XsMax and XR options but that also doesn't exist in the audiophile world haha.

Good luck with the Feb launch! ?

[pl_svn]

5 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

1. The clocking in the TX-USBultra made an immediate audible improvement. (Replacing the LPS-1 with the LPS-1.2 improved it again ?)

 

2. Adding the sCLK-OCX10 lifted it even further.

 

8 minutes ago, Superdad said:

But what I have trying to explain is that our piece is about way more than clocking.  Perhaps I reopened the thread too soon because we are not yet ready to explain all of what makes what we are doing unique (and for propriety reasons we will have to decide just how much to reveal even when we do).

 

 

[tapatrick]

20 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

.....3. I've discussed this with Ted Smith and he didn't say the Directstream was immune to clocking upstream.

 

The Directstream is a great DAC but improvements upstream help it perform even better. 

Yes definitely true for the PS Audio Junior. 

[austinpop]

50 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Some folks are today getting really hung up on this clock issue.  But what I have trying to explain is that our piece is about way more than clocking.  Perhaps I reopened the thread too soon because we are not yet ready to explain all of what makes what we are doing unique (and for propriety reasons we will have to decide just how much to reveal even when we do).

 

Very interesting Alex. I know some people get their knickers in a twist at the benefits from clocking stuff, and that's their problem.

 

I have never been wedded to a single approach, and have always gone where my ears told me. I have long felt that our empirical findings with better clocks (lower phase noise), better PSUs, and better isolation have all been related, and centered around eliminating analog noise that rides along the digital chain.

 

Therefore if you are hinting that John has had a breakthrough that ties these concepts together, and that he has engineered a solution that is immune to things like lower-phase noise external clocks, then color me intrigued! That would be revolutionary.