SGC - sonicTransporter Series and Signalyst HQPlayer 4 Embedded

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, jamesg11 said:

Thanks,

how about dsd256 - all good?

/& this is into a ifi dac2, or ...?

 

iDAC2 doesn’t do DSD512 - this is into a Pro-Ject S2 DAC (Miska also has one and measured really well and sounds great).

 

DSD512 works flawlessly with 2 stage upsampling (i.e.with -2s).

 

I’ll try DSD256 in single step upsampling (i.e. without-2s) on the weekend.

 

[asdf1000]

Hi JR @vortecjr

 

Having issues when HQP embedded is upsampling Roon's Tidal stream to DSD512 with attached settings, on the sonicT i7.

 

When playing USB drive of music connected to sonicT i7, there's no problems with HQP up-sampling to DSD512. No pops.

 

But when Roon Core (on the same sonicT i7 obviously) is up-sampling Tidal stream to DSD512, there are pops... Every 20 seconds, very noticeable.

 

When Roon alone (no HQP) is up-sampling Tidal to DSD512, there's no issues, so it's not a Tidal internet connectivity problem. The DAC handles DSD512 sample rate fine (Jussi has the same DAC) with hard drive up-sampled music, so not a DAC issue.

 

Can you reproduce this at your end? A known temporary issue ? @agillis

 

Why would Roon streaming Tidal on the same machine as HQP Embedded cause pops but hard drive connected music, no problems at DSD512?

 

The chain is sonicT i7 to ultraRendu. Gigabit connections all round.

 

Do you have a sonicTi7 to reproduce this @Miska ? DAC is the same you have, Pro-Ject S2 Pre DAC.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[vortecjr]

17 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Hi JR @vortecjr

 

Having issues when HQP embedded is upsampling Roon's Tidal stream to DSD512 with attached settings, on the sonicT i7.

 

When playing USB drive of music connected to sonicT i7, there's no problems with HQP up-sampling to DSD512. No pops.

 

But when Roon Core (on the same sonicT i7 obviously) is up-sampling Tidal stream to DSD512, there are pops... Every 20 seconds, very noticeable.

 

When Roon alone (no HQP) is up-sampling Tidal to DSD512, there's no issues, so it's not a Tidal internet connectivity problem. The DAC handles DSD512 sample rate fine (Jussi has the same DAC) with hard drive up-sampled music, so not a DAC issue.

 

Can you reproduce this at your end? A known temporary issue ? @agillis

 

Why would Roon streaming Tidal on the same machine as HQP Embedded cause pops but hard drive connected music, no problems at DSD512?

 

The chain is sonicT i7 to ultraRendu. Gigabit connections all round.

 

Do you have a sonicTi7 to reproduce this @Miska ? DAC is the same you have, Pro-Ject S2 Pre DAC.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

I'm sure these are a terrible guess, but something to try while we wait for others chime in. Try a different buffer like 250 and try a different startup volume like -4db or 6db. 

[asdf1000]

8 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I'm sure these are a terrible guess, but something to try while we wait for others chime in. Try a different buffer like 250 and try a different startup volume like -4db or 6db. 

 

It's very easily reproducible at my end.

 

Hard drive connected music up-sampled to DSD512 by HQP is fine.

 

Tidal stream up-sampled to DSD512 by HQP has pops.

 

Roon up-sampling Tidal to DSD512 has no issues (i.e. only HQP embedded has the pops up-sampling Tidal to DSD512).

 

Will try these things

 

Is there too much network activity inside the sTi7 with Tidal streaming and HQP streaming to the rendu at the same time? Causing these pops with Tidal up-sampling to DSD512?

 

[vortecjr]

8 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

It's very easily reproducible at my end.

 

Hard drive connected music up-sampled to DSD512 by HQP is fine.

 

Tidal stream up-sampled to DSD512 by HQP has pops.

 

Roon up-sampling Tidal to DSD512 has no issues (i.e. only HQP embedded has the pops up-sampling Tidal to DSD512).

 

Will try these things but definitely sound like terrible guesses but will try anyway.

 

Is there too much network activity inside the sTi7 with Tidal streaming and HQP streaming to the rendu at the same time? Causing these pops with Tidal up-sampling to DSD512?

 

LOL. Maybe Miska can also provide some guidance as well. What happens with a different filter?

[asdf1000]

7 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

LOL. Maybe Miska can also provide some guidance as well. What happens with a different filter?

 

LOL I was joking about the terrible guess - buffer is obviously a good thing to try.

 

Same issue with different filter. The filter settings I attached were confirmed by Andrew Gillis earlier in the thread to work fine.

 

And it does work fine with USB drive connected to sTi7. Only issues with Roon's Tidal stream on the same sonicTi7...

 

Can you not test this yourself too? With Roon + Tidal and HQP Embedded on sonicTi7 and streaming to an ultraRendu?

 

[Miska]

9 hours ago, Em2016 said:

It's very easily reproducible at my end.

 

Hard drive connected music up-sampled to DSD512 by HQP is fine.

 

Tidal stream up-sampled to DSD512 by HQP has pops.

 

Roon up-sampling Tidal to DSD512 has no issues (i.e. only HQP embedded has the pops up-sampling Tidal to DSD512).

 

Will try these things

 

Is there too much network activity inside the sTi7 with Tidal streaming and HQP streaming to the rendu at the same time? Causing these pops with Tidal up-sampling to DSD512?

 

From earlier post I got the picture you had Roon doing upsampling to DSD512? Just check that you have Roon DSP engine disabled for the HQPlayer output (top left corner of Roon's audio setting dialog). Is Roon using "localhost" as HQPlayer address?

 

Just leave "Buffer time" for network endpoint at "0" -> Default. Should work fine in all cases.

 

Anyway, Tidal uses so little network bandwidth that it shouldn't make any difference. Filter settings in your screenshot look fine too.

 

[vortecjr]

10 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

LOL I was joking about the terrible guess - buffer is obviously a good thing to try.

 

Same issue with different filter. The filter settings I attached were confirmed by Andrew Gillis earlier in the thread to work fine.

 

And it does work fine with USB drive connected to sTi7. Only issues with Roon's Tidal stream on the same sonicTi7...

 

Can you not test this yourself too? With Roon + Tidal and HQP Embedded on sonicTi7 and streaming to an ultraRendu?

 

No..currently I only have an i5 and a DAC that supports DSD256. Andrew has the DSD512 DAC now. 

[asdf1000]

47 minutes ago, Miska said:

From earlier post I got the picture you had Roon doing upsampling to DSD512? Just check that you have Roon DSP engine disabled for the HQPlayer output (top left corner of Roon's audio setting dialog).

 

Yep Roon DSP is completely disabled.

 

48 minutes ago, Miska said:

Is Roon using "localhost" as HQPlayer address?

 

Yes it's set to localhost as the HQP address, since Roon Core is on the same machine. Does this need to be changed to the IP address or is it ok to leave as 'localhost'?

 

 

[asdf1000]

42 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

No..currently I only have an i5 and a DAC that supports DSD256. Andrew has the DSD512 DAC now. 

 

Can you please ask Andrew @agillis to try this with the sonicTi7 and DSD512 up-sampling?

 

Up-sampling Roon Tidal stream vs local USB drive.

 

Using the same filter settings attached.

 

 

[Miska]

42 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Yes it's set to localhost as the HQP address, since Roon Core is on the same machine. Does this need to be changed to the IP address or is it ok to leave as 'localhost'?

 

"localhost" is most efficient for this case, as it doesn't need to through bunch of unnecessary stuff due to everything being on the same machine.

 

[asdf1000]

42 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

"localhost" is most efficient for this case, as it doesn't need to through bunch of unnecessary stuff due to everything being on the same machine.

 

 

Noted, will leave it as localhost, as it already is.

[asdf1000]

@vortecjr @agillis

 

It's actually not just limited to Tidal. Even USB drive content is having popping today... So it's an overall general DSD512 issue with the sonicTransporter playing to ultraRendu.

 

I've tried increasing buffer to 250ms and startup volume even at -12dB and still get pops with DSD512. I tried different modulators.

 

Is this just a case that the sonicT i7 can't handle DSD512 with the attached settings, to the ultraRendu?

 

Is there anyone out there with a sonicT i7 and Rendu combination getting DSD512 to work with HQP? With Roon DSD512 up-sampling has been rock solid but I know Roon's filters are lighter.

 

 

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Can you please ask Andrew @agillis to try this with the sonicTi7 and DSD512 up-sampling?

 

Up-sampling Roon Tidal stream vs local USB drive.

 

Using the same filter settings attached.

 

 

The gear might be coming back to me for testing, but this will take a while. Feel free to try different filters or sample rates in the mean time.

[vortecjr]

12 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

I've tried increasing buffer to 250ms and startup volume even at -12dB and still get pops with DSD512. I tried different modulators.

 

 

 

Jussi should he be using start volume or fixed volume to add headroom?

[asdf1000]

28 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

The gear might be coming back to me for testing, but this will take a while. Feel free to try different filters or sample rates in the mean time.

 

Ok thanks. Already confirmed earlier that DSD256 works fine. So this is only about DSD512 with the sonicTransporter i7

 

I know some of Jussi's filters need a super computer but earlier in the thread Andrew said those filter settings I posted will work fine for DSD512 on the sTi7 - but that isn't my experience , with pops.

[Miska]

I also wrote on Roon forum about the same topic, but check the "Limits" counter value on front page. When DirectSDM is enabled, PCM-to-DSD is also fixed -2.5 dB volume. To adjust volume for PCM-to-DSD, you need to disable DirectSDM.

 

If you don't need HQPlayer's volume control, you can then set it to fixed value on the config page under "Fixed volume". This will reject volume change requests from control applications. But it cannot override the fixed value used when DirectSDM is enabled.

 

Whether that -2.5 dBFS setting is enough depends on how compressed the source content is, IOW how much it contains digital clipping and such.

 

It could be just that the Tidal content you tried is more compressed/worse than the content you've tried from HDD.

[vortecjr]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

I also wrote on Roon forum about the same topic, but check the "Limits" counter value on front page. When DirectSDM is enabled, PCM-to-DSD is also fixed -2.5 dB volume. To adjust volume for PCM-to-DSD, you need to disable DirectSDM.

 

If you don't need HQPlayer's volume control, you can then set it to fixed value on the config page under "Fixed volume". This will reject volume change requests from control applications. But it cannot override the fixed value used when DirectSDM is enabled.

 

Whether that -2.5 dBFS setting is enough depends on how compressed the source content is, IOW how much it contains digital clipping and such.

 

It could be just that the Tidal content you tried is more compressed/worse than the content you've tried from HDD.

Understood and much appreciated. 

[vortecjr]

Here are some more data points

 

This morning I went into the boneyard and came up with a way to play DSD512:

ultraRendu -> ultraDigital -> LVDS i2s/DSD via HDMI -> custom Buffalo Saber DAC -> unbalanced out direct into earphones

 

I tried two different front end with Tidal as the source: 

1. 2011 i7 MacBook Pro with 16 GB ram streaming from Roon and Roon / HQ Player. This tired front end wants nothing to do with DSD512. Doesn't even matter if it's wired or wireless. It will play DSD256 though. DSD256 is really more than anyone needs IMO, but I don't judge. 

2. i5 sonicTransporter with Roon and Roon / HQ Player. With this front end running Roon I can play DSD512. With this front end running Roon / HQ player I'm not able to play DSD512. It will play DSD256 though.

 

Support tickets were low so I was able to work on this. The real issue was once I started playing Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers is was hard to pull myself away to post the findings:)

[vortecjr]

I tried this front end with Tidal as the source: 

1. 2011 i7 MacBook Pro with 16 GB ram streaming from Roon and Roon / HQ Player. I switched my wireless from the 3GHz (used by everyone in the house) signal to 5GHz (unused) signal. Now with this front end running Roon I can play DSD512. With this front end and Roon / HQ player I'm still not able to play DSD512.

[Miska]

Here, I have fanless HQPlayer Embedded computer connected to Holo Spring DAC. Roon is running on MacMini under macOS. From Roon I can output any content just fine to HQPlayer which always outputs DSD512 (using any of the -2s filter variants).

 

That fanless computer has i5-7600T CPU and 16 GB of DDR4-2400 RAM.

 

To set clean baseline, I'd suggest to first try without NAA and see how it goes. This simplifies the setup and reduces number of variables in the picture.

 

[vortecjr]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

Here, I have fanless HQPlayer Embedded computer connected to Holo Spring DAC. Roon is running on MacMini under macOS. From Roon I can output any content just fine to HQPlayer which always outputs DSD512 (using any of the -2s filter variants).

 

That fanless computer has i5-7600T CPU and 16 GB of DDR4-2400 RAM.

 

To set clean baseline, I'd suggest to first try without NAA and see how it goes. This simplifies the setup and reduces number of variables in the picture.

 

How do you control it?

[Miska]

19 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

How do you control it?

 

Usually straight from MacMini, but sometimes when I'm adventurous, from Android or iPad Pro using Roon app.

 

HQPlayer configuration is done through browser as usual.

 

[R1200CL]

9 hours ago, vortecjr said:

2. i5 sonicTransporter with Roon and Roon / HQ Player. With this front end running Roon I can play DSD512. With this front end running Roon / HQ player I'm not able to play DSD512. It will play DSD256 though.

 

Are you really saying that a SonicTransporter i5 can do full HQPlayer embedded DSD512 ? 

 

If so that’s fantastic. 

 

How does the picture of the system status look like ?

[asdf1000]

9 hours ago, vortecjr said:

2. i5 sonicTransporter with Roon and Roon / HQ Player. With this front end running Roon I can play DSD512. With this front end running Roon / HQ player I'm not able to play DSD512. It will play DSD256 though.

 

Excellent but that's to be expected with the i5 - or maybe not, per Miska's comment that his i5 plays the 2s filter options at DSD512...

 

Anyway my question is about the sonicTransporter i7-7700 (Kaby Lake) 8gb DDR4 RAM, which really should be able to play all HQP 2s filter options at DSD512 (according to the above and other people's comments on Roon forum).

 

And Andrew himself said it should work 'very well' earlier in this thread... 

 

 

When you get your sonicTransport i7, appreciate if you can confirm.

 

Also appreciate if any other sonicT i7 + Roon + HQP Embedded + micro/ultraRendu users out there can test and confirm if they have HQP DSD512 up-sampling working.