A crowd funded motherboard(s) for audiophiles - Part 2

[rickca]

5 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Also all these server processors are multi core around 2Ghz (3Ghz turbo) what do you need for upsampling to

DSD ?

Yes that's the big question for those of us interested in doing DSD512.

[Ralf11]

What is the design goal for this board?

 

What parts cost?

 

 

[lmitche]

25 minutes ago, rickca said:

Yes that's the big question for those of us interested in doing DSD512.

There is a post in this thread:

 

From above Salaryman's post says this config will do polysinc-xtr:

 

Xeon e5-2683 v3 (14C28T) + X99 + DDR2133 8G x2 non-2s

 

That's a 3ghz processor at turbo speed so the Epyc 3000 16 core processor should work at 95 watts.

 

[rickca]

Ryzen 7 2700X ($369) is expected 4/19 along with new X470  motherboards.

TDP 105W

Base frequency 3.7 GHz, Max Boost 4.35 GHz

8 cores / 16 threads

 

Also Ryzen 7 2600X ($249)

TDP 95W

Base frequency 3.6 GHz, Max Boost 4.25 GHz

6 cores / 12 threads 

 

https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-2000-desktop-cpu-official-specs-performance-prices-leaked/

[sig8]

17 hours ago, lmitche said:

There is a post in this thread:

 

From above Salaryman's post says this config will do polysinc-xtr:

 

Xeon e5-2683 v3 (14C28T) + X99 + DDR2133 8G x2 non-2s

 

That's a 3ghz processor at turbo speed so the Epyc 3000 16 core processor should work at 95 watts.

 

I am up sampling all DSD to DSD 512 with my i7 6700, with -XTR. No issues.

[wushuliu]

Hm, y'all may want to avoid any brand new PC builds until the meltdown/spectre issues are resolved. Lot of BSODs out there being reported - just check new mobo reviews for starters. And remember it impacts every cpu built since 1995...

[Kal Rubinson]

You may find this relevant.  It is a report of security flaws in AMD processors.

https://amdflaws.com/

[Milt99]

Sincerely I would like to see something like this become a reality.

I think a few fundamentals need to be addressed.

CPU tech has been stagnant for a while and has recently make some breakthroughs.

I would suggest going with the longest tried & true fabricator, Intel.

I'm old enough to remember when Intel used the system to try and quash AMD.

As much as I loathed what they did, I've never bought a non-Intel processor.

My point is to get the widest acceptance of what is obviously a niche product,

the widest acceptance will be with names folks know.

I've been an IT Professional since it was called Data Processing & FWIW have a B.S. in CompSci.

Other than creating a unique product what this product would have going for it is the ability for end-user upgrading.

Processing power is but one aspect, easily upgrade RAM and especially storage are the 2nd best thing about this project.

Not being bound to a proprietary architecture is significant.

I would love to buy a pre-built, tested PC\music server at the level I wish to start with and be able to upgrade the storage over time on my own and not be bound to buying an entirely new product for no good reason

[Milt99]

Double post

[lmitche]

Thanks everyone for your interest in this topic.  I have decided that it is best to wait a few months until the market stabilizes before continuing this effort. There is a ton of new processor, chipset and motherboard product in the pipeline, and given this, it is too early to pull the trigger on what can be best called a moving target.

 

In the interim, like most of you, I will eye market announcements and when I see the pipeline slowing expect me to revive this thread or start a new one.

 

The good news is that everything seems to be moving in our direction from a feature and performance standpoint, and I expect we will have some great alternatives coming from the renewed AMD and Intel competition.

 

Stay tuned,

 

Larry

[lateboomer]

I am not knowledgeable in pc but could you enlighten what is lack of with this motherboard P10S-M with Socket LGA 1151 which highlighted by Seeteeyou? Since it has 3 pcie in 8x 4x 4x configurations which direct connect to cpu, then it should be more than enough to be used for this project. Is it not?

[Lebouwsky]

If the focus is on features, one can always wait for “the next big thing”. The supermicro X10SBA for example is chosen by quite some enthousiasts (including myself)  and a manufacturer because of it’s sound . I believe it was launched somewhere in 2012 or 2013. 

[lateboomer]

I have implemented the supermicro X10SBA powered with lps and both the storage SATA SSD and USB audio card also powered with lps in last weekend. For the first time I can clearly say the sound achieved is as good as or even better than my competent cd transport which heavily modified with lps. It also beats my another lps powered Asrock J3455B-itx motherboard with about 10% improvement.

[marce]

12 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

You may find this relevant.  It is a report of security flaws in AMD processors.

https://amdflaws.com/

Intel processors are also effected.

[marce]

This is entering the world of design by committee... I would suggest the OP define the requirements that cater for the majority, otherwise you will end up going off in so many tangents nothing concrete will be decided.

[lmitche]

Marce,

 

I am stopping the effort, at least my involvement in it. The timing is wrong regardless of the design. There are very few boards available that meet the requirements of the majority of poll respondents, a micro atx form factor motherboard with 3 directly connected slots to a processor capable of dsd512 upsampling. These requirements have been defined through the polling process and subsequent discussions.

 

There will be many more products meeting these requirements coming to market in the next months, and it is my judgement that it best to wait and revisit this topic once the pace of change has slowed down.

 

And what is wrong with design by committee? I purposely approached this effort with a goal to build concensus in requirements. I think that has been accomplished.

 

Feel free to start another thread if you would like to run a parallel effort. Technically, you are most likely better qualified than me to take this effort on.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

8 hours ago, lateboomer said:

I am not knowledgeable in pc but could you enlighten what is lack of with this motherboard P10S-M with Socket LGA 1151 which highlighted by Seeteeyou? Since it has 3 pcie in 8x 4x 4x configurations which direct connect to cpu, then it should be more than enough to be used for this project. Is it not?

This Asus WS product looks to be exactly what we need in a core 7 class motherboard. Unfortunately core 7 has already been made obsolete with the rollout of core 8 and 9 processors. As a result z270 motherboard production is being discontinued by many manufacturers including Asus.

 

The next generation processors from Intel and AMD appear to support more direct PCie lanes, with mores cores in lower wattage packages. Today any investment in time or money made in a new CPU or motherboard is likely to be obsolete in less then 6 months. Therefore I am going to wait until things calm down.

[lmitche]

7 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

If the focus is on features, one can always wait for “the next big thing”. The supermicro X10SBA for example is chosen by quite some enthousiasts (including myself)  and a manufacturer because of it’s sound . I believe it was launched somewhere in 2012 or 2013. 

No doubt, for the low power crowd, the Supermicro X10SBA is a great board. At $175 it is tempting to buy one just to have a listen.

 

Nevertheless the majority of the poll respondents asked for a MicroATX board with at least 3 direct to CPU slots. The Supermicro has one slot, and is a mini-itx form factor, so doesn't meet our criteria.

[lateboomer]

25 minutes ago, lmitche said:

This Asus WS product looks to be exactly what we need in a core 7 class motherboard. Unfortunately core 7 has already been made obsolete with the rollout of core 8 and 9 processors. As a result z270 motherboard production is being discontinued by many manufacturers including Asus.

 

The next generation processors from Intel and AMD appear to support more direct PCie lanes, with mores cores in lower wattage packages. Today any investment in time or money made in a new CPU or motherboard is likely to be obsolete in less then 6 months. Therefore I am going to wait until things calm down.

Thank you for the explanation. I think it is ok to wait for at least 6 months as you said because thing is so flux now. But i also tempted to try out this p10s-m to compare with supermicro.

[lmitche]

52 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

Thank you for the explanation. I think it is ok to wait for at least 6 months as you said because thing is so flux now. But i also tempted to try out this p10s-m to compare with supermicro.

You could put a low power 34 watt dual core i3 or 25 watt quad core Celeron Skylake processor <$100 in this motherboard for a low watt solution.  That would be closest to the Supermicro product with a MicroATX FF and 3 direct to CPU slots. You couldn't do hqplayer upsampling, but you don't want that anyway. Dual power will work as well. Two Stammheim 12 volt 3 amp lt3045s lpsu powering this would be sweet.

[marce]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

Marce,

 

I am stopping the effort, at least my involvement in it. The timing is wrong regardless of the design. There are very few boards available that meet the requirements of the majority of poll respondents, a micro atx form factor motherboard with 3 directly connected slots to a processor capable of dsd512 upsampling. These requirements have been defined through the polling process and subsequent discussions.

 

There will be many more products meeting these requirements coming to market in the next months, and it is my judgement that it best to wait and revisit this topic once the pace of change has slowed down.

 

And what is wrong with design by committee? I purposely approached this effort with a goal to build concensus in requirements. I think that has been accomplished.

 

Feel free to start another thread if you would like to run a parallel effort. Technically, you are most likely better qualified than me to take this effort on.

 

Larry

Design by committee is where everybody want their own requirements for the job,  so you end up with many requirements that often can't be met withing the requirements and constraints of the design.

As to motherboards, for myself they are all as bad or all as good when looking at the basic stuff you can buy, none tend to be really far out designs because they have to sell for a certain price, I have done basic (to cost) and high end motherboards in the past, the high end boards often cost the same for a bare board as for a fully populated cheapo board. The problem is a lot of the top end boards are not for general sale, as they would cost to much, but for bespoke projects.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Design by committee is where everybody want their own requirements for the job,  so you end up with many requirements that often can't be met withing the requirements and constraints of the design.

As to motherboards, for myself they are all as bad or all as good when looking at the basic stuff you can buy, none tend to be really far out designs because they have to sell for a certain price, I have done basic (to cost) and high end motherboards in the past, the high end boards often cost the same for a bare board as for a fully populated cheapo board. The problem is a lot of the top end boards are not for general sale, as they would cost to much, but for bespoke projects.

Yes, I know, a camel is a horse designed by committee . . . .

 

Nevertheless the truth is most projects benefit from a collaborative approach, where the key is to be open to others ideas with a willingness to find compromises that make sense.

 

It would be great if you can suggest one or two board houses for a bespoke design.

[Ben2300]

I  apologize I hasn’t been on much lately. And I understand this has been stopped but I just want to leave what I’ll do as a technical program manager. I have work with so many Corp include intel and amd and hope that help.

Seem like we wait DSD512 for upsampling.

1. Than let’s pick a brand that everyone agree on. Or do the poll again so work with that one. 

2. confirm commitment who absolutely will be in and price they willing to pay

3. Base on price pick one or two Mb

4. Approach The mother company and see if they will to help with effort and support as custom.

5. Get the spec of MB and CPU and goto jussi and ask base on this setup will HQ be able to handle dsd512 with what filter. 

6. Base on how many is going to buy HQ have him do the work to tweak on HQ and modify the code for HW. may be a different tree or build all together.

7. This way is much easier to get things done. If you have 100 people x $160 that is $16k

P.S in computer hw, every year things will be obsolete but who define that. Consumers. Win7 still so popular, Celeron still using it by many new products. 

hope this help next time around.

 

Cheers

B

[rickca]

On 3/14/2018 at 7:28 PM, wushuliu said:

Hm, y'all may want to avoid any brand new PC builds until the meltdown/spectre issues are resolved. Lot of BSODs out there being reported - just check new mobo reviews for starters. And remember it impacts every cpu built since 1995...

Here is the latest news re Intel fixes.

 

The new chips that Intel is promising will address both security and performance considerations with silicon rather than software, and will be available this year. For the data center, this is the Cascade Lake server processor, and for the consumer and business markets this is known as Cannon Lake. Both will include what Intel is calling “virtual fences” between user and operating system privilege levels and will create a significant additional obstacle for potential vulnerabilities.

 

The chips will also lay the ground work and foundation for future security improvement, providing a method to more easily update the security of the processors through patching.

[lmitche]

49 minutes ago, rickca said:

Here is the latest news re Intel fixes.

 

The new chips that Intel is promising will address both security and performance considerations with silicon rather than software, and will be available this year. For the data center, this is the Cascade Lake server processor, and for the consumer and business markets this is known as Cannon Lake. Both will include what Intel is calling “virtual fences” between user and operating system privilege levels and will create a significant additional obstacle for potential vulnerabilities.

 

The chips will also lay the ground work and foundation for future security improvement, providing a method to more easily update the security of the processors through patching.

Yes, yet another reason to wait. Things are screwy, including the reporting of similar issues with AMD products that may have been fake news.