A crowd funded motherboard(s) for audiophiles - Part 2

[seeteeyou]

8 minutes ago, rickca said:

I don't think such a thing exists.

 

There isn't room on a mATX board for three x16 slots (running as x8/x4/x4) and on ATX boards the 3rd x16 slot invariably goes through the PCH.

 

Larry seemed to be looking for 8 + 4 + 4 (physically one x8 slot plus two x4 slots) for PCI Express Port Configurations with direct connections to the CPU, though it's extremely "rare" to see anything like that since x16 slots (with x16 speed) should be too precious to be "wasted" by PCH.

 

And then how many people would pay for Micro-ATX boards with no x16 slots (with x16 speed) whatsoever?

 

BTW, I had a chuckle when I saw Asus P10S WS

 

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/socket1151/P10S_WS/Manual/E13680_P10S_WS_UM_V5_WEB.pdf#page=10

Quote

PCIE_X16_1: PCI-E x16 slot, x16/ x8 Gen3 Link
PCIE_X16_2: PCI-E x16 slot, x8 Gen3 Link, switched from PCIEX16_1
PCIE_X16_3: PCI-E x16 slot, x4 Gen3 Link, from PCH
PCIE_X16_4: PCI-E x16 slot, x4 Gen3 Link, from PCH

 

[seeteeyou]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

So I ask those of you with advanced google skills to search for a lga 1151 MicroATX board with a 1x8+2x4 PCI express direct to CPU configuration.

 

None of my skills are considered advanced by any means but does this P10S-M with Socket LGA 1151 count?

 

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/socket1151/P10S-M/Manual/E13688_P10S-M_UM_V3_WEB.pdf#page=32

Quote

2.5.4 PCI Express x8 slot (x8 link)

The onboard PCIE 7 provides one x8 Gen3 links to the CPU.

 

2.5.5 PCI Express x16 slot (x8 link)

The onboard PCIE 6 provides one x8 Gen3 links to the CPU, and auto switches to x4 link if PCIE 5 is occupied.

 

2.5.6 PCI Express x8 slot (x4 link)

The onboard PCIE 5 provides one x8 Gen4 links to the CPU.

 

[LTG2010]

51 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

None of my skills are considered advanced by any means but does this P10S-M with Socket LGA 1151 count?

That is promising, 3x PCIE CPU slots two are linked via a switch bit that should not impact sound quality significantly.

I had a word with DFI tech today regarding the modular approach. The closest I got to what we might be looking for is :

You can use this combinations   5 PCIe x1 or 4 PCIe x1 + 1 PCIe x4 or 3 PCIe x1 + 2 PCIe x2 (support up to 5 devices and 8 lanes)   And you need COM332-B carrier board with the KU968 unit. Basically a carrier board with a slot on CPU unit. All linked direct to CPU. The maximum processor size is 15W i7 7600U 2.8 ghz 3.9 turbo. This might be a dream board for SOTM and low power users, but not for the medium and higher power upsampling needs. Also these boards are quite pricey.

[rickca]

57 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

None of my skills are considered advanced by any means but does this P10S-M with Socket LGA 1151 count?

Well, you proved me wrong!  That is a mATX board with x8/x4/x4 all connected to the CPU.  Unfortunately, no M.2 slot.  I guess I've never looked at Xeon boards before.  This is a very unusual configuration.  It supports Xeon E3-1200 V5 and V6 processors.

[lmitche]

21 minutes ago, rickca said:

Well, you proved me wrong!  That is a mATX board with x8/x4/x4 all connected to the CPU.  Unfortunately, no M.2 slot.  I guess I've never looked at Xeon boards before.  This is a very unusual configuration.  It supports Xeon E3-1200 V5 and V6 processors.

Yes, well done seeteeyou! Marcin, thanks for the pointer to look at the Asus server board site.

 

The Asus server board can take a a $35 dual core Pentium up to the Xeon e3-1285 v6.  It also has jumpers to disable many devices. Likewise SATA can be disabled in the bios. I can't find a way to disable the BMC IPMI processor, but I am sure the method exists and instructions are hidden in the manual somewhere.

 

For those that will never use a Nvidia gpu there is the Supermicro x11ssl that has two x8 slots with no plx chip. Again, most things can be disabled with switches. This is a pretty barebones solution.

 

There is also an Asus z270 ws board that switches between 4 pcie x 16 slots for encrypted currency mining priced at $400 on Amazon. It works with the 6700k CPUs most of us have today.

[rando]

My concern, if it is a relevant one on current boards, is the lane math not working as you'd expect.  By which I mean plugging in multiple cards effectively draws and quarters the lanes.  An x4 becomes a single lane, x16 becomes four lanes, and so on.  This was a problem with "gaming" motherboards designed around high draw discrete GPU(s).  I'd ask very specific questions in this direction to the manufacturer.  

[rickca]

22 minutes ago, lmitche said:

There is also an Asus z270 ws

Also interesting.  Of course, this board is ATX.  Asus must be working on a Z370 WS.  It would be nice if the first M.2 slot connected to the CPU.  I think this is only possible with Coffee Lake.

[mourip]

21 minutes ago, rickca said:

Well, you proved me wrong!  That is a mATX board with x8/x4/x4 all connected to the CPU.  Unfortunately, no M.2 slot.  I guess I've never looked at Xeon boards before.  This is a very unusual configuration.  It supports Xeon E3-1200 V5 and V6 processors.

 

Not sure if this is helpful but Lycom makes a PCIe M.2 adapter card that fits in a free PCIe slot. I am using one in a desktop PC which had only one M.2 slot on the motherboard. Works well with my Samsung 960 EVO

 

 

[rando]

@bmoura The foil sticker on 960 series was a large improvement in heat dispersion.  It isn't uncommon to see more upscale adapters mount the M.2 inside a large heatsink.  If you wished, you could still install a heatsink over it help with fan noise (assuming this is an audio PC)

[lmitche]

20 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

Not sure if this is helpful but Lycom makes a PCIe M.2 adapter card that fits in a free PCIe slot. I am using one in a desktop PC which had only one M.2 slot on the motherboard. Works well with my Samsung 960 EVO

Yes, helpful indeed.

I have an Asus PCIE card that does the same. It works great with my second Optane card for making backups from my motherboard m.2 slot based Optane card. Given the way this is all heading with no CPU direct M.2 slots, we are going to need one of these for Optane boot drive support.

[lmitche]

Here is a nice writeup on the various ways PCie lane allocation is accomplished.

 

https://www.tweaktown.com/guides/8482/intel-z370-motherboard-buyers-guide/index6.html

[rando]

Tweakertown sounds reliable enough a source for remedial information. 

 

You appear to be in favor of platitude based socializing while attempting this without benefit of resourceful outside information.  I wish you luck in this endeavor and will prove no further interruption to discussions.  

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, rando said:

I wish you luck in this endeavor and will prove no further interruption to discussions.  

 

Thank you very much!

[lmitche]

On 3/9/2018 at 3:32 PM, rickca said:

Also interesting.  Of course, this board is ATX.  Asus must be working on a Z370 WS.  It would be nice if the first M.2 slot connected to the CPU.  I think this is only possible with Coffee Lake.

Rick,

 

I think you nailed it. 

 

The industry is in transition. The z170, z270, c232, c236 solutions look a bit long in the tooth. The new intel solutions based on the z370 equivalent PCH and processors have yet to be released in the server motherboard marketplace. 

 

I am beginning to think the timing of this exercise is too early.  I wonder if we shouldn't wait 6 to 12 months until things stabilize a bit.

 

What does everyone think?

 

Larry

[lateboomer]

Is it not the previous thread suggested m.2 direct to cpu can be achieved by m.2 adapter for pcie? In that case there is no need to wait further?

[seeteeyou]

32 CPU PCIe lanes from EPYC 3101 with 35W TDP, followed by 64 CPU PCIe lanes from EPYC 3301 with 65W TDP (i.e. 12 cores for $450)

 

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/epyc_embedded/3101

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/epyc_embedded/3301

https://www.amd.com/en/products/embedded-epyc-3000-series

https://www.amd.com/Documents/3000-Family-Product-Brief.pdf#page=4

 

We don't really need HD caching so even Optane ain't a problem for Snowy Owl.

 

What more could we ask for?

 

 

BTW, it's just really a different paradigm when we actually see the block diagram of their EPYC 7000 series

 

[lmitche]

36 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

32 CPU PCIe lanes from EPYC 3101 with 35W TDP, followed by 64 CPU PCIe lanes from EPYC 3301 with 65W TDP (i.e. 12 cores for $450)

 

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/epyc_embedded/3101

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/epyc_embedded/3301

https://www.amd.com/en/products/embedded-epyc-3000-series

https://www.amd.com/Documents/3000-Family-Product-Brief.pdf#page=4

 

We don't really need HD caching so even Optane ain't a problem for Snowy Owl.

 

What more could we ask for?

 

 

BTW, it's just really a different paradigm when we actually see the block diagram of their EPYC 7000 series

 

Wow, that's cool, figuratively and literally.  I wonder what the minimum single core speed needs to be for Hqplayer upsampling to DSD 512.  Any idea?

 

Is it shipping yet?

[LTG2010]

47 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

BTW, it's just really a different paradigm when we actually see the block diagram of their EPYC 7000 series

Great find @seeteeyou, it looks like a high power version of intel's SOC.

The good thing about this type of arrangement is that USB, LAN and SATA all direct to CPU, it gives a greater degree of user flexibility.

Anybody used one of the AMD boards for a music PC?

Edit. wow just seen some prices of those larger 180W processors.

[rickca]

OK I had a look at AMD Threadripper CPUs like the 1900X and x399 motherboard.  It gives us everything we want today ... but it's an extended ATX form factor.  Hmm ... the TDP on this monster is 180W!

 

For example, the Asus Prime X399-A motherboard ($300) with a 1900X CPU ($450) gives you the following directly from the CPU:

 

4 x PCIe 3.0 x16 (single@x16, dual@x16/x16, triple@x16/x16/x8 mode)

1 x M.2 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode)
1 x M.2 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode)

 

There's a nice block diagram in this article

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11685/amd-threadripper-x399-motherboards

 

So my question is ... does AMD have something around TDP 95W with this kind of architecture for PCIe lanes?

 

 

[lmitche]

18 minutes ago, rickca said:

OK I had a look at AMD Threadripper CPUs like the 1900X and x399 motherboard.  It gives us everything we want today ... but it's an extended ATX form factor.  Hmm ... the TDP on this monster is 180W!

 

For example, the Asus Prime X399-A motherboard ($300) with a 1900X CPU ($450) gives you the following directly from the CPU:

 

4 x PCIe 3.0 x16 (single@x16, dual@x16/x16, triple@x16/x16/x8 mode)

1 x M.2 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode)
1 x M.2 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode)

 

There's a nice block diagram in this article

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11685/amd-threadripper-x399-motherboards

 

So my question is ... does AMD have something around TDP 95W with this kind of architecture for PCIe lanes?

 

 

Where is @Quadman?  He tested lots of the the new Ryzen stuff but I never saw a summary of results.

[rickca]

@seeteeyou the Epyc 3000 series looks great but this stuff is so recently announced it's hard to get much information about it.  Have you found a block diagram for the 3000 series like the one you posted for the 7000 series?

 

It's been so long since I followed what AMD is doing.  I guess it's time to wake up.

 

[seeteeyou]

36 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Is it shipping yet?

 

They just announced EPYC Embedded in late February, it's hard to tell when that would hit the street. Anyways it's gonna come in a BGA package (SP4r2 BGA Socket) and therefore the CPU is soldered to the motherboard in the first place. In other words, that's really meant for competing with Xeon D

 

https://ark.intel.com/products/series/87041/Intel-Xeon-Processor-D-Family

 

We're getting 128 CPU PCIe lanes from EPYC 7000 series and they're already in stock for at least several months

 

$512.5 (cheapest CPU with 4+4 cores)
http://www.provantage.com/amd-ps7251bfafwof~7AAMD36L.htm

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-epyc-7251

 

$420 (ATX board with 6 PCIe slots)
http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-mbd-h11ssl-nc-b~7SUPM5U7.htm

https://www.supermicro.com/Aplus/motherboard/EPYC7000/H11SSL-NC.cfm

 

$336.5 (ATX board with 6 PCIe slots)
http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-mbd-h11ssl-i-b~7SUPM5TR.htm

https://www.supermicro.com/Aplus/motherboard/EPYC7000/H11SSL-i.cfm

 

Block diagram on page 17, M.2 slot is only meant for SATA devices so we'll need an adapter for Optane

 

https://www.supermicro.com/manuals/motherboard/EPYC7000/MNL-2085.pdf#page=17

Passive cooling should work fine for 7251 with 120W TDP since their heat sink options are good for up to 180W

 

http://store.supermicro.com/heatsink.html?heat_sink_supported_cup_sku=977

 

About $850 for the cheapest processor and motherboard at the moment, I really like the fact that H11SSL-i could be powered from 3 separate connectors. Besides the usual 24-pin ATX, they've got 8-pin for CPU plus another 4-pin for peripheral devices

 

https://www.supermicro.com/manuals/motherboard/EPYC7000/MNL-2085.pdf#page=43

 

If we don't really need to use that many cores, we could also decide how many of them should be disabled

 

https://www.supermicro.com/manuals/motherboard/EPYC7000/MNL-2085.pdf#page=63

Quote

This sets the number of cores to be used by your system. Once this option has been used to remove any cores, a power cycle is required in order for the future selections to take effect. Options include TWO (1+1), Two (2 + 0), Three (3 + 0), Four (2 + 2), Four (4+0), Six (3 + 3) and Auto. If unsure, leave this to Auto.

 

[manishex]

Anyway to get 2 ethernet ports so it's possible to use it as a bridge?

[rickca]

31 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Block diagram on page 17, M.2 slot is only meant for SATA devices so we'll need an adapter for Optane

I didn't see anything saying that the M.2 slot only supports SATA in the H11SSL-I/C/NC manual.  Where did you see this?

[LTG2010]

18 minutes ago, rickca said:

I didn't see anything saying that the M.2 slot only supports SATA in the H11SSL-I/C/NC manual.

Looks like there's 1 x PCI-E 3.0 x4 M.2 port

Also all these server processors are multi core around 2Ghz (3Ghz turbo) what do you need for upsampling to

DSD ?