A crowd funded motherboard(s) for audiophiles - Part 2

[seeteeyou]

Latency wasn't the only thing based on the what @romaz shared before, and then PCH also needs to be fed a specific voltage while LT3045 (there's an upcoming product with 10 pieces / 5A) might or might not be able to handle that

 

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/understanding-all-voltage-configurations-from-the-motherboard/6/

Quote

North Bridge voltage: This is the voltage that feeds the North Bridge chip from the motherboard chipset. It is important to note that Intel calls the North Bridge chip the MCH (Memory Controller Hub, on motherboards targeted to CPUs without an embedded memory controller), IOH (I/O Hub, on motherboards targeted to CPUs that have an embedded memory controller using a two-chip chipset solution) or PCH (Platform Contoller Hub, on motherboards targeted to CPUs that have an embedded memory controller using a single-chip chipset solution), so the name of this option can vary. PCH chipsets have two separate voltages, VccVcore (usually referred on the motherboard setup as “PCH 1.05 V” or “PCH Voltage,” which is the chip’s main voltage) and VccVRM (usually referred on the motherboard setup as “PCH 1.8 V” or “PCH PLL Voltage,” which feeds the clock multipliers inside the chip).

 

Speaking of noise measurements, does it cost extra if we're requesting that?

[LTG2010]

7 hours ago, lmitche said:

Having moved my USB card between PCH and CPU direct slots, improvement in SQ from CPU direct slots is easily heard.

This will limit our choices, I've looked at some boards from evga and supermicro some have 3 PCIE slots 2 only to processor 1 to PCH.

2x M2 slots to PCH,- its early days though.

[davide256]

8 hours ago, lmitche said:

Having moved my USB card between PCH and CPU direct slots, improvement in SQ from CPU direct slots is easily heard.

So I naively ask, are there affordable MOBO's where all the PCIE slots are CPU direct?

[seeteeyou]

2 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

This will limit our choices, I've looked at some boards from evga and supermicro some have 3 PCIE slots 2 only to processor 1 to PCH.

2x M2 slots to PCH,- its early days though.

 

There's really not much we could do with only 16 CPU PCIe lanes, once again we could only get up to 3 slots to processor unless DFI / Supermicro wanna bend the rules or something. X299 with Core X-Series would give us 28 lanes but we're talking about i7-7800X with 140W TDP for $365 or so.

 

Xeon Bronze 3104 for $250 would give us 48 CPU PCIe lanes, we could easily get two x16 slots and two x8 slots to processor while that's also good for the Micro-ATX form factor with the highest number of votes.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

So I naively ask, are there affordable MOBO's where all the PCIE slots are CPU direct?

For 2 channel upsampling, we are fine with 2 direct to cpu pcie slots. That configuration is very common on MicroATX boards. For multichannel, something needs to be connected to the PCH.  My current motherboard works this way and with an Optane stick sounds great. 

 

Otherwise a x299 motherboard could be used, but processors run 114 to140 tdp, so are going to need serious cooling.

 

If the multichannel guys can accept this, we are good.

[seeteeyou]

14 minutes ago, lmitche said:

we are fine with 2 direct to cpu pcie slots.

 

Is the sound quality of PCH PCIe lanes (or lack thereof) for SATA / USB / Ethernet etc. not a big deal anymore? Just trying to understand if @romaz 's posts didn't make sense or maybe we're somehow "ignoring" the impact of SATA / USB / Ethernet via PCH?

[lmitche]

30 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Is the sound quality of PCH PCIe lanes (or lack thereof) for SATA / USB / Ethernet etc. not a big deal anymore? Just trying to understand if @romaz 's posts didn't make sense or maybe we're somehow "ignoring" the impact of SATA / USB / Ethernet via PCH?

Over here, a single lt3045 powered 4 port usb card connects a USB 3 nic, USB HDD, and ISO Regen/DAC. All the motherboard based NICs, USB interfaces and SATA ports are disabled in bios or software. So with two direct PCie slots, one for the USB card and one for the Optane adapter all is good. 

 

Roy was right and this configuration addresses his issues. 

 

Make sense? BTW, 4 of us CAers run systems this way today all booting from Optane drives. 3 of us run with 2 split power supplies for the motherboard.

[seeteeyou]

7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Over here, a single 4 port usb card connects a USB 3 nic, USB HDD, and ISO Regen/DAC. All the motherboard based NICs, USB interfaces and SATA ports are disabled in bios or software. So with two direct PCie slots for the USB card and Optane adapter all is good.

 

That's cool, those of us who already purchased tX-USBexp plus JCAT NET Card FEMTO (as well as that upcoming product from UpTone Audio that could be either a switch or an Ethernet card) etc. should be left in the cold to deal with PCH PCIe lanes then. 1 slot to processor for the display card, then we're left with only 1 more slot to processor while we've got 2 more cards.

 

Now it's quite interesting to go back and read this reply below

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=255&tab=comments#comment-777864

On 2/9/2018 at 11:05 AM, lmitche said:

Rick, the microAtx 6700k dsd512 solution running here with the dual PSUs is sounding spectacular. I would argue it is the scaled up configuration you are looking for. It doesn't have a Jcat or Sotm USB card, but those were tried and eliminated. I haven't tried a Jcat Ethernet nic, but the USB powered nic used here gets it's lt3045 power through the 4 port USB card, and sounds great.  Tidal SQ = HDD SQ, so no need to do more. I'll add a 3 amp lt3045 and a couple 13.5 volt sigma 11 lpsus in the next week and I'm expecting to be done.

 

[lateboomer]

46 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Over here, a single lt3045 powered 4 port usb card connects a USB 3 nic, USB HDD, and ISO Regen/DAC. All the motherboard based NICs, USB interfaces and SATA ports are disabled in bios or software. So with two direct PCie slots, one for the USB card and one for the Optane adapter all is good. 

 

Roy was right and this configuration addresses his issues. 

 

Make sense? BTW, 4 of us CAers run systems this way today all booting from Optane drives. 3 of us run with 2 split power supplies for the motherboard.

My current setup is running Daphile boot on its own Ext4 partition and with music storage on seperate Exfat partition at Samsung EVO SSD drive supplied with external lps and also connected with SATA filter card. I have tried music storage at minipro ext 2TB HDD before with lps but connected to motherboard usb port didn't sound as good.
Won't the USB HDD with more spinning parts and lower speed is lesser in SQ compared with SSD in this suggestion? Are SATA ports required to go through PCH as well?

And quote "A direct to CPU m.2 nvme x4 lanes slot is a substitute for one of the pcie slots above." doesn't give us the capability to power it with external lps which is better, am I right?
 

[lmitche]

13 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Those of us who already purchased tX-USBexp plus JCAT NET Card FEMTO, etc. . . should be left in the cold to deal with PCH PCIe lanes.

Well, if we only have a motherboard with two direct cpu slots, yes.

[seeteeyou]

Just now, lmitche said:

Well, if we only have a motherboard with two direct cpu slots, yes.

 

Thank you. Will the number of direct CPU slots appear in another poll, or is that written in stone already?

[lmitche]

4 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

My current setup is running Daphile boot on its own Ext4 partition and with music storage on seperate Exfat partition at Samsung EVO SSD drive supplied with external lps and also connected with SATA filter card. I have tried minipro ext 2TB HDD before with lps but connected to motherboard usb port didn't sound as good.
Won't the USB HDD with more spinning parts and lower speed is lesser in SQ compared with SSD in this suggestion? 

And quote "A direct to CPU m.2 nvme x4 lanes slot is a substitute for one of the pcie slots above." doesn't give us the capability to power it with external lps which is better, am I right?
 

I haven't found an SSD that didn't sound like a blanket on the sound.  I much prefer my lt3045 powered 3.5 inch HDD. People talk about SLC SSD being OK, but it's an old technology.  Optane boot drives are new, two more models were introduced today, and are extremely fast and quiet. Over here, Optane is only one of two active devices enabled on the PCH, the other being the HPT.

[lmitche]

3 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Thank you. Will the number of direct CPU slots appear in another poll, or is that written in stone already?

No, not written in stone, it is the distribution of the 16 lanes across PCIE slots that is the issue.

 

Does anyone know the PCIE lane requirements of the Jcat USB and Ethernet?

 

[lateboomer]

19 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I haven't found an SSD that didn't sound like a blanket on the sound.  I much prefer my lt3045 powered 3.5 inch HDD. People talk about SLC SSD being OK, but it's an old technology.  Optane boot drives are new, two more models were introduced today, and are extremely fast and quiet. Over here, Optane is only one of two active devices enabled on the PCH, the other being the HPT.

I agreed that implementing good lps with adequate noise filtering for SSD is very challenging. I am open minded with this 3.5 inch HDD, but is it not desktop internal SATA drive which needs another conversion to become USB HDD? Won't this conversion to USB HDD be noisy? I know I am paranoid.

[lmitche]

1 minute ago, lateboomer said:

I agreed that implementing good lps with adequate noise filtering for SSD is very challenging. I am open minded with this 3.5 inch HDD, but is it not desktop internal SATA drive which needs another conversion to become USB HDD? 

Yes it's a SATA drive in a metal box. 12 volt in via DC Jack with shunt, 5 volts in via USB cable from USB card. I was never able to get a SATA connected drive to sound as good.

[rickca]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Does anyone know the PCIE lane requirements of the Jcat USB and Ethernet?

Both JCAT USB Card Femto and JCAT NET Card Femto:

All x1-x16 lane PCI Express 2.0 slots supported

 

So I guess that means x1 is sufficient.

[rickca]

@lmitche I realize this isn't mATX, but according to Anandtech, on the ASRock X299 Taichi

 the first (of three) PCIe M.2 slots bypasses the DMI3.0 and is directly connected to the CPU, eliminating any potential bottlenecks with that interface

 

I will try to contact ASRock tech support and find out about their mATX Z370M Pro 4 has what we want.  The manual doesn't have a block diagram.  This is a really nice board https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z370M Pro4/index.asp#Overview

[lateboomer]

I would prefer mAtx with 3 pcies slots. First pcie is for Optane boot drive, 2nd pcie is for either SSD or USB HDD (plus USB 3 nic if needed) for music storage, then the last pcie is for dedicated usb card for audio.

 

I don't doubt the Startech 4-port usb card is doing superb job giving excellent SQ at Larry's system, but is it not 4-port usb card connects a USB 3 nic, USB HDD, and ISO Regen/DAC sharing too many activities and switching between themselves on the same pcie lane?  If it is mAtx with 4 pcies slots, then I would put in one Elfidelity Filter Card at the 4th pcie slot but I not sure how effective it is. 

[rickca]

55 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

I don't doubt the Startech 4-port usb card is doing superb job giving excellent SQ at Larry's system, but is it not 4-port usb card connects a USB 3 nic, USB HDD, and ISO Regen/DAC sharing too many activities and switching between themselves on the same pcie lane? 

It's a 4-port, dual channel, x4 card installed in a PCIe slot that is directly connected to the CPU.  I've got one powered by an external LPS-1.  The ISO REGEN/DAC and USB HDD are on different USB channels.  Typically, the USB3 NIC and USB HDD (for music files) aren't used concurrently.  The USB NIC is used for streaming.

 

I don't use the Optane SSD.  My OS is on an X25-M SSD with a SOtM SATA II filter powered by an external PH SR4.

[lateboomer]

15 minutes ago, rickca said:

It's a 4-port, dual channel, x4 card installed in a PCIe slot that is directly connected to the CPU.  I've got one powered by an external LPS-1.  The ISO REGEN/DAC and USB HDD are on different USB channels.  Typically, the USB3 NIC and USB HDD (for music files) aren't used concurrently.  The USB NIC is used for streaming.

 

I don't use the Optane SSD.  My OS is on an X25-M SSD with a SOtM SATA II filter powered by an external PH SR4.

Thank you for the info. I don't use Optane SSD either. I am also using Samsung EVO ssd powered by lps and filtered by Elfidelity filter card. However, from the previous thread I read it seems implying SATA ports also have to go through PCH which is no good in SQ, that is why I am thinking Optane SSD run from pcie slot as suggested. 

[davide256]

hmm, can you use an optane drive with the Roon core linux distribution? Since I am opposed to ever connecting a PC directly to DAC, the SSD noise discussion doesn't matter to me, the faster speed of SSD does as well as supporting at least 2 drives other than the OS drive. Wondering if requirements will bifurcate based on whether the implementation is direct connect or networked...

[lmitche]

15 minutes ago, davide256 said:

hmm, can you use an optane drive with the Roon core linux distribution? Since I am opposed to ever directly connecting a PC directly to DAC, the SSD noise discussion doesn't matter to me, the faster speed of SSD does as well as supporting at least 2 drives other than the OS drive. Wondering if requirements will bifurcate based on whether the implementation is direct connect or networked...

Nvme support is in Linux kernels 3.3 or later.

http://nvmexpress.org/resources/drivers/linux-driver-information/

 

I don't see any bifurcation direct connect vs. networked unless you are running bridged NICs, in which case you need two. Most boards have two nics, so you should be good.

[lmitche]

OK, so we need to find a board with a three slot direct to cpu PCI Express configuration of 1x8+2x4.  All I can find are x16 or x8+x8 boards. 

 

A few points:

 

• Socket 1151 processors support 1x8+2x4 PCIE lane configs.

• If we can find a socket 1151 board with this PCIE config, we can use processors from 35 watts to full 95 watts.  I am hoping the low-end of this wattage range meets the needs of the low-power crowd.

• These are the highest volume processors from Intel and have the best pricing for sure, running from approx $35 to $350.
• A 1x8pcie+1x4pcie+1x4m.2 would work as well.

 

So I ask those of you with advanced google skills to search for a lga 1151 MicroATX board with a 1x8+2x4 PCI express direct to CPU configuration.

 

If we can't we such a beast, then it would appear we have the specs for a custom (bespoke) board.

 

The alternative is a x299 board, but wattage is 120 watts minimum and prices can be higher. This eliminates the low power crowd from this exercise. I also don't Ike the implications of all that heat.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

 

 

[Marcin_gps]

Asus P10S WS

 

I'm bulding an audio PC based on the above now. 

[rickca]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

So I ask those of you with advanced google skills to search for a lga 1151 MicroATX board with a 1x8+2x4 PCI express direct to CPU configuration.

I don't think such a thing exists.

 

There isn't room on a mATX board for three x16 slots (running as x8/x4/x4) and on ATX boards the 3rd x16 slot invariably goes through the PCH.