Article: MQA: A Review of controversies, concerns, and cautions

[miguelito]

15 minutes ago, crenca said:

Yep relationships matter.  When it comes to MQA these relationships seem to matter a lot.  My sweetie @miguelito seems to be a bit upset at me for being a little naughty, but it's not like mqa has some sort of moral high ground ?

I'm just pointing out that you're making completely baseless and defamatory  claims. You could in principle make baseless claims. Defamation however is not ok.

[crenca]

7 minutes ago, miguelito said:

I'm just pointing out that you're making completely baseless and defamatory  claims. You could in principle make baseless claims. Defamation however is not ok.

 

Laughing out loud!  I openly questioned dSC and Roons relationship based on their own explicit words.  Andrew has now set the record straight...despite the reality of his very close relationship, he knows absolutely nothing, nada, zip.  I really don't see what you're all that upset about ?

[LawrenceDavid]

@crenca If that even is your REAL name - Sure relationships matter. Relationships are hard and a dating MQA has got to be exhausting. Look how quickly your relationship with @miguelito turned south just because he insisted on using logic. Psshhh how dare he.  Listen, It's like this; Bob Stuart invented math. If these other suckers can't build a machine that uses his math.. Well I'm sorry to say, but no matter how much ignorantiam they ad,  they ain't gonna get invited to the Pizza Party that MQA hosts every other Thursday. But if you're really really good at math, maybe you can hose your own party and invite Bobby boy.. if he has time.. 

The devil is in the details.

[mansr]

24 minutes ago, LawrenceDavid said:

Bob Stuart invented math

And Al Gore invented the internet.

[crenca]

20 minutes ago, LawrenceDavid said:

@crenca If that even is your REAL name - Sure relationships matter. Relationships are hard and a dating MQA has got to be exhausting. Look how quickly your relationship with @miguelito turned south just because he insisted on using logic. Psshhh how dare he.  Listen, It's like this; Bob Stuart invented math. If these other suckers can't build a machine that uses his math.. Well I'm sorry to say, but no matter how much ignorantiam they ad,  they ain't gonna get invited to the Pizza Party that MQA hosts every other Thursday. But if you're really really good at math, maybe you can hose your own party and invite Bobby boy.. if he has time.. 

The devil is in the details.

 

That's great Lawrence!  You're like an Herb R. but you make sense. Would you consider being a founding writer at the Consumer Audiophile and Technical Union?

 

Don't worry about me and @miguelito, his first love is his trophy wife dCS dac - I'm just a play thing on the side.  I know my place, but I will make it up to him later ?

 

 

[Indydan]

On 4/4/2018 at 4:45 PM, LawrenceDavid said:

Hey All- Long time listener, first time caller. Before this turns into a full blown dumpster fire, I wanted to throw my straw man hat into the mix. 

 

Isn't MQA for better or worse essentially just math? And aren't the folks at dCS super good at math? Ya know, with all those FPGA's and what not? Now, I'm no scientist... I bet there's a lot of math in Roon too... 

 

All of these people who do math working together.. Sounds very much like collusion to me. 

.. Also, I don’t know this Bob Stuart guy, but I heard he invented math.. so I sure as heck don’t trust him.

 

See what I did there?

 

 

Peter Veth, WitchDoctor, Lee Scoggins, Peter Veth 2 (as Peter Markus)... And now LawrenceDavid. 

[Ralf11]

also, Witchdoctor's fake Snowflake login

[labjr]

On 4/4/2018 at 6:31 PM, mansr said:

And Al Gore invented the internet.

He also invented climate change.

[Ralf11]

On 4/7/2018 at 12:38 PM, labjr said:

He also invented climate change.

 

 

guess again

 

if anyone invented it, that would likely be Svante Arrhenius 

[sandifop]

Excellent. All my concerns echoed in one exercise: Thank you.

 

I'll voice my 2¢. Leave the processing at the consumer end. and the sound file as pure, unprocessed and unfiltered as possible. One needs a reference point and it is the recording for me.

[Ralf11]

try cutting the pills in half next time

[beetlemania]

There are so many MQA threads I’m not sure where to post this?‍♂️

 

With Roon 1.5 I am able to do a valid comparison between Mqa and PCM 24 bit. The only caveat is I have no idea if the master is the same. That aside, I preferred PCM on each track I compared. In particular, vocals were more full and liquid. MQA was fine but not as good in direct comparison.  

 

I usually trust JA’s ears but he is wrong about the new world birthing ?

I can only assume that MQA was able to do “extra “ doctoring on his files after he provided the raw mics and impulse response.

 

 I was skeptical about Brinkmanship’s MQA trial but now I’m inclined to believe his account.

[asdf1000]

2 hours ago, beetlemania said:

With Roon 1.5 I am able to do a valid comparison between Mqa and PCM 24 bit. The only caveat is I have no idea if the master is the same.

 

This question of 'is it the same master' is important but as you say, can be difficult to know sometimes.

 

But if they're from the same master, the 1st MQA unfold (not looking at anything other than the 1st unfold) is pretty close to the FLAC 24/96kHz (example only) you'd purchase from HDTracks or Qobuz etc etc.

 

@Archimago even said so himself:

 

"Objectively with the songs I examined, the software decoder works well to reconstruct what looks like the equivalent 24/96 download."

 

and

 

"Bottom line: TIDAL/MQA streaming does sound like the equivalent 24/96 downloads based on what I have heard and the test results"

 

https://archimago.blogspot.hk/2017/01/comparison-tidal-mqa-music-high.html

 

So if you don't like the MQA version's 1st unfold (again only looking at the 1st unfold) it's probably a good guess that it's because you don't like that actual master that was used, more than not liking the MQA folding and 1st unfold.

 

This is another way of saying, it's still the mixing/mastering that's most important. 

 

There are also other concerns that Archi raised in this article (no need for me to repeat) but my points above are only related to the 1st unfold.

 

[firedog]

Many of the MQA versions sound like very different remasters to the versions i have, so it is very difficult to compare. It's also very difficult to set equivalent volume levels, which is a necessity for serious comparisons. 

In any case, I've yet to the the "new world" or "revolution" that many say MQA brings. Overall, sounds like a new remaster -  I might like it, I might not. Nothing more or less than that . 

[asdf1000]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

Overall, sounds like a new remaster -  I might like it, I might not.

 

Yep right above your post I said the exactly same: "So if you don't like the MQA version's 1st unfold (again only looking at the 1st unfold) it's probably a good guess that it's because you don't like that actual master that was used

 

This is another way of saying, it's still the mixing/mastering that's most important. "

[a2x024]

Great article.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys - Just a quick note from the High End show in Munich. 

 

I’ve run into several people here in Munich, from the most well known brands in HiFi, who thanked me for publishing this article and who passed it around to many other people in the industry. 

 

Thanks to @Archimago for delivering a well written and indisputable article. It has been noticed by nearly everyone. 

[Downham]

On 5/10/2018 at 5:08 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys - Just a quick note from the High End show in Munich. 

 

I’ve run into several people here in Munich, from the most well known brands in HiFi, who thanked me for publishing this article and who passed it around to many other people in the industry. 

 

Thanks to @Archimago for delivering a well written and indisputable article. It has been noticed by nearly everyone. 

Yes but who?? Let them speak for themselves....here !!

Certain Manufacturers have bemoaned MQA for some time as it came at a time when they'd put their money elsewhere!So no surprise there !!

 

[Downham]

The list of MQA partners is growing......who's fooling who??(many of whom are 'well known brands' as referred  above !!)

 

 

 

 

[FredericV]

In the Dutch pro audio world, they translated parts of your article into this summary, in Dutch:

https://www.helios.nl/nieuws/mqa-tegenstellingen-zorgen-en-waarschuwingen

Alpha-audio, one of the Dutch sites specialized in streaming, now also mentioned this translation on their frontpage:

https://www.alpha-audio.nl/2018/06/mqa-ter-discussie-fake-bestandsformaat/

which means "MQA up for debate: fake file format?".

Alpha Audio's Jaap Veenstra interviewed Bob in Munich (which lead to interesting facts disclosed by Bob), but now he's also allowing the research of independent MQA researchers.

 

[Rt66indierock]

1 hour ago, FredericV said:

In the Dutch pro audio world, they translated parts of your article into this summary, in Dutch:

https://www.helios.nl/nieuws/mqa-tegenstellingen-zorgen-en-waarschuwingen

Alpha-audio, one of the Dutch sites specialized in streaming, now also mentioned this translation on their frontpage:

https://www.alpha-audio.nl/2018/06/mqa-ter-discussie-fake-bestandsformaat/

which means "MQA up for debate: fake file format?".

Alpha Audio's Jaap Veenstra interviewed Bob in Munich (which lead to interesting facts disclosed by Bob), but now he's also allowing the research of independent MQA researchers.

 

 

Can we safely conclude we are are not independent MQA researchers?

[asdf1000]

2 hours ago, FredericV said:

Alpha-audio, one of the Dutch sites specialized in streaming, now also mentioned this translation on their frontpage:

https://www.alpha-audio.nl/2018/06/mqa-ter-discussie-fake-bestandsformaat/

which means "MQA up for debate: fake file format?".

 

If they specialise in streaming, then looking at Tidal + MQA which involves the 1st unfold (up to 24/96) I wonder if they investigate what Archimago has said about the 1st unfold?

 

I've said before I'd prefer MQA go away and we all know 16/96 will likely achieve the same SQ with the same bandwidth.

 

But I don't know if based on what Archimago has said if we can call the 1st unfold  a "fake file format?" Especially if it's equivalent to the 24/96 that can be purchased, if both are from the same master.

 

This is what @Archimago said:

 

"Objectively with the songs I examined, the software decoder works well to reconstruct what looks like the equivalent 24/96 download."

 

and

 

"Bottom line: TIDAL/MQA streaming does sound like the equivalent 24/96 downloads based on what I have heard and the test results"

 

https://archimago.blogspot.hk/2017/01/comparison-tidal-mqa-music-high.html

 

I've mentioned this before but it seems people still don't believe what Archimago has said about the 1st unfold? And I've verified myself using Audio Hijacker on Mac OS and Spek analyzer.

 

It's quite easy to verify yourself at home...

 

Again, while I'd prefer MQA go away, I can't objectively call the 1st unfold a "fake file format".... Now, beyond the 1st unfold, we have different story which has been discussed and analysed to death already.

 

But if these guys specialise in streaming, I hope they can show how the 1st unfold (streamed over Tidal) is fake?

[crenca]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

If they specialise in streaming, then looking at Tidal + MQA which involves the 1st unfold (up to 24/96) I wonder if they investigate what Archimago has said about the 1st unfold?

 

I've said before I'd prefer MQA go away and we all know 16/96 will likely achieve the same SQ with the same bandwidth.

 

But I don't know if based on what Archimago has said if we can call the 1st unfold  a "fake file format?" Especially if it's equivalent to the 24/96 that can be purchased, if both are from the same master.

 

This is what @Archimago said:

 

"Objectively with the songs I examined, the software decoder works well to reconstruct what looks like the equivalent 24/96 download."

 

and

 

"Bottom line: TIDAL/MQA streaming does sound like the equivalent 24/96 downloads based on what I have heard and the test results"

 

https://archimago.blogspot.hk/2017/01/comparison-tidal-mqa-music-high.html

 

I've mentioned this before but it seems people still don't believe what Archimago has said about the 1st unfold? And I've verified myself using Audio Hijacker on Mac OS and Spek analyzer.

 

It's quite easy to verify yourself at home...

 

Again, while I'd prefer MQA go away, I can't objectively call the 1st unfold a "fake file format".... Now, beyond the 1st unfold, we have different story which has been discussed and analysed to death already.

 

But if these guys specialise in streaming, I hope they can show how the 1st unfold (streamed over Tidal) is fake?

 

Well, I think you are applying a precision to the term "fake" that itb does not carry.  Sure MQA is a "1st unfold", but MQA is also many other things as well.  How many of the myriad other claims about MQA are indeed "fake"?  It's hard to keep track of the all.

 

No offense, but your point is besides the point...

[Archimago]

On 6/20/2018 at 6:40 PM, Em2016 said:

 

If they specialise in streaming, then looking at Tidal + MQA which involves the 1st unfold (up to 24/96) I wonder if they investigate what Archimago has said about the 1st unfold?

 

I've said before I'd prefer MQA go away and we all know 16/96 will likely achieve the same SQ with the same bandwidth.

 

But I don't know if based on what Archimago has said if we can call the 1st unfold  a "fake file format?" Especially if it's equivalent to the 24/96 that can be purchased, if both are from the same master.

 

This is what @Archimago said:

 

"Objectively with the songs I examined, the software decoder works well to reconstruct what looks like the equivalent 24/96 download."

 

and

 

"Bottom line: TIDAL/MQA streaming does sound like the equivalent 24/96 downloads based on what I have heard and the test results"

 

https://archimago.blogspot.hk/2017/01/comparison-tidal-mqa-music-high.html

 

I've mentioned this before but it seems people still don't believe what Archimago has said about the 1st unfold? And I've verified myself using Audio Hijacker on Mac OS and Spek analyzer.

 

It's quite easy to verify yourself at home...

 

Again, while I'd prefer MQA go away, I can't objectively call the 1st unfold a "fake file format".... Now, beyond the 1st unfold, we have different story which has been discussed and analysed to death already.

 

But if these guys specialise in streaming, I hope they can show how the 1st unfold (streamed over Tidal) is fake?

 

Hi Em2016,

 

Whether intentional (probably) or not, MQA has provided so many twists and turns to the "technology" that as others have said sometimes makes it difficult to appreciate whether there might be some value to parts of the technique or total BS.

 

In the context of that post linked, yeah, the songs I looked at and listened to did maintain their 24/96 characteristics... But that's not exactly a full endorsement because most of them were not "true" hi-res albums. Madonna's "Material World", Led Zeppelin's "Good Times Bad Times", Joni Mitchell's "A Case of You" are either old analogue recordings or in the case of Madonna, looks to be at least partially digitally sampled. The Buena Vista track might be the only one with a decent hi-res provenance.

 

Ultimately we're back to the basic MQA tradeoff. Sacrifice available bitdepth for reconstruction of the ultrasonic octave. So long as the music's noise floor is high enough that those lower bits can be sacrificed, it's unlikely to be missed by listeners. Given today's storage costs and availability of high bitrate streaming, plus for audiophiles interested in the best full lossless resolution, MQA IMO just isn't needed or would be inferior to the original studio master.

 

I wouldn't use the word "fake" either. It does render a pretty decent looking 1st unfold whether we believe there is benefit in that or not. I have much more trouble believing in the whole "deblurring" thing whether as a DSP during encoding or if they're claiming it's performed by those filters. Plus the nonsensical need for "authentication" and of course all the silly hype perpetuated over years...

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, Archimago said:

I have much more trouble believing in the whole "deblurring" thing whether as a DSP during encoding or if they're claiming it's performed by those filters. Plus the nonsensical need for "authentication" and of course all the silly hype perpetuated over years...

 

Thanks Archi

 

All this stuff I've quoted is all the 'stuff' that applies after the 1st unfold right? If so, I agree with you, we don't need it.

 

I was only talking about the 1st unfold, which isn't better than 16bit/96kHz as we know but it isn't that bad either in the technical sense. The potential for DRM in the future is of course a worry.